Stick 'em or not?

I'm the lead with under 20 seconds remaining in a win or go home ballgame, Team B scores to cut Team A's lead to 1.
Team A doesn't attempt to pick up the ball (at their dispossal) for a throw-in (clock is still running). I thought that I was being very generous in giving a verbal "one" to make Team A aware that I'm indeed counting & not having the stalling tactics.
A1 requests & is granted a time out (4.5 on my count). Instead of being thankful for the verbal "one" count, A1 (on his way to the bench) turns around and shouts "You can't start counting until we pick up the ball, what's your problem"?

Now, I've trained myself to have selective hearing & have learned to ignore stupid comments. But wait a minute... is this guy really yelling at ME for helping him twice (could've easily counted silently & visually also could've ignored the time-out & went with 5 seconds).

I know if I stick him, Team B could make up to 6 points & Team A loses the ballgame on a stupid technical foul.




Besides NOT giving the verbal "one" count, what would you all have done?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I'm the lead with under 20 seconds remaining in a win or go home ballgame, Team B scores to cut Team A's lead to 1.
Team A doesn't attempt to pick up the ball (at their dispossal) for a throw-in (clock is still running). I thought that I was being very generous in giving a verbal "one" to make Team A aware that I'm indeed counting & not having the stalling tactics.
A1 requests & is granted a time out (4.5 on my count). Instead of being thankful for the verbal "one" count, A1 (on his way to the bench) turns around and shouts "You can't start counting until we pick up the ball, what's your problem"?

Now, I've trained myself to have selective hearing & have learned to ignore stupid comments. But wait a minute... is this guy really yelling at ME for helping him twice (could've easily counted silently & visually also could've ignored the time-out & went with 5 seconds).

I know if I stick him, Team B could make up to 6 points & Team A loses the ballgame on a stupid technical foul.




Besides NOT giving the verbal "one" count, what would you all have done?

This is what you get for being nice. At least, that's what some folks will tell you. You just administer the game as you normally do, and don't go out of your way to be "nice". You can't. And, yes, I'd stick him -- for being a complete idiot. If they lose because of the T, the coach better be yelling at him, not you!!

[jeffpea]

Giving him a T, while a natural emotional response, would not be the best thing to do here in this situation. Yes, he was being a smart a$$. Yes, he should be thankful for your "help". Yes, he deserves a smack across the face. But, no profanity and a short comment that may have only been heard by you OR at least looks very minor on film, does not warrant a T.

You did a good thing by verbally starting your count to give him fair warning. IMHO your penalty/punishment should have been NOT granting the T.O. and awarding the ball to Team B. A turnover means that Team B still has to inbound, shoot, and score. Whacking the kid w/ a T is the "double whammy" - Team B shoots FT's to tie/go ahead AND gives Team B possession of the ball.

Save yourself the game changing problem...either don't grant the T.O.....or....grant the T.O. and get over your ego problem and pass on the T.

I'm sure 95% of others in here will say: "whack 'em".....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

But, no profanity and a short comment that may have only been heard by you OR at least looks very minor on film, does not warrant a T.

But, what if the player turns around and shouts his comments while walking to the bench?

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Giving him a T, while a natural emotional response, would not be the best thing to do here in this situation. Yes, he was being a smart a$$. Yes, he should be thankful for your "help". Yes, he deserves a smack across the face. But, no profanity and a short comment that may have only been heard by you OR at least looks very minor on film, does not warrant a T.

You did a good thing by verbally starting your count to give him fair warning. IMHO your penalty/punishment should have been NOT granting the T.O. and awarding the ball to Team B. A turnover means that Team B still has to inbound, shoot, and score. Whacking the kid w/ a T is the "double whammy" - Team B shoots FT's to tie/go ahead AND gives Team B possession of the ball.

Save yourself the game changing problem...either don't grant the T.O.....or....grant the T.O. and get over your ego problem and pass on the T.

I'm sure 95% of others in here will say: "whack 'em".....

Not sure if you read my OP correctly, but A1 turns around & shouts everyone heard it & looked directly at me like "oooooohhhhhh he told you".
I don't know about you but NOBODY shouts at me on my wood.

I can't understand how you think the verbal was a good thing?? I'll never ever do that again... what if the other team knew the rules & said I was cheating by giving the verbal???

Who said they were kids?

And why not grant a TO when my arm didn't click on 5?

Ego? You lost me, but thanks for chiming in.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Not sure if you read my OP correctly, but A1 turns around & shouts everyone heard it & looked directly at me

This probably falls under "showing up the ref". I definitely would not T just for what was said. HTBT for the shouting, but in that case, the T is understandable.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I don't know about you but NOBODY shouts at me on my wood.

Ego? You lost me, but thanks for chiming in.

The first line in your quote above is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say "get over your ego".....Those who have big ego's always seem to "bring a gun to a knife fight" - iow, they tend to pass out a tech. whenever their ego is challenged.

Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.

I agree with that, but this situation was not created by the official. The official correctly started a count and correctly granted a time-out request before the violation. In this case, if some know-it-all player wants to hand out some medicine (loudly and in front of the whole crowd), he probably should have it shoved back down his own throat.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

The first line in your quote above is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say "get over your ego".....Those who have big ego's always seem to "bring a gun to a knife fight" - iow, they tend to pass out a tech. whenever their ego is challenged.

Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.

So, you'd allow the player to yell at you AND ignore a legal TO reqest? If that had happened I'm sure there would have been even more people yelling at you. If you wouldn't have whacked the kid for this - what would it take to deserve a T? You cannot let your knowledge of game situation control what you should and should not call. You have to take care of business. You can't let this outburst slide by.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Sometimes you've got to take your medicine as a result of the situation that you've helped to create.

That's exactly the point that I was trying to make, Jeff. I don't have a problem with your personal opinion as to what the reaction should be to a player yapping. I certainly don't agree with you but everybody does have different tolerance levels. However, if you start making phantom violation/foul calls, etc. as an alternative to reacting according to the options laid out in the rules, then you're creating you own mess. You deserve everything that you subsequently get because you caused the problems.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

You did a good thing by verbally starting your count to give him fair warning. IMHO your penalty/punishment should have been NOT granting the T.O. and awarding the ball to Team B. A turnover means that Team B still has to inbound, shoot, and score. Whacking the kid w/ a T is the "double whammy" - Team B shoots FT's to tie/go ahead AND gives Team B possession of the ball.

Save yourself the game changing problem...either don't grant the T.O.....or....grant the T.O. and get over your ego problem and pass on the T.

I'm sure 95% of others in here will say: "whack 'em".....

Are you serious? You're going to deliberately ignore a rule just to get back at a player? Un-freaking-believable. That concept is right out of the Old School book of rec league officiating.

We're officials. We don't play games with the rules to make a point. Calling a "T" on this play is a judgment call. Calling a violation that ISN'T a violation just to get back at a player is never the way to go. That's just wrong. No wonder our damn integrity gets questioned if some officials are out there pulling this kinda crap.

Terrible, terrible advice imo. I'm sure that 95% of the experienced officials on this forum will agree with me too.

[Adam]

Whack him. I don't do verbal counts on this, regardless. I might make my visual count a little exaggerated, but it's not going to be audible.

The T becomes easy and simple when he adds "what's your problem." I would have answered him differently after the game, though. That comment might lead to other problems if your assigner isn't so understanding. Then again, it's wreck league; thus making the T easier and the comment more acceptable. Well done.

Oh, and yes, I agree with JR that jeffpea's advice is, well, not optimal.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Whack him. I don't do verbal counts on this, regardless. I might make my visual count a little exaggerated, but it's not going to be audible.

The T becomes easy and simple when he adds "what's your problem." I would have answered him differently after the game, though. That comment might lead to other problems if your assigner isn't so understanding. Then again, it's wreck league; thus making the T easier and the comment more acceptable. Well done.

Oh, and yes, I agree with JR that jeffpea's advice is, well, not optimal.

I agree on all points. Only thing I'd really stay away from would have been the post game reply to the player - best not to give them anything at all to work with, just walk away.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious? You're going to deliberately ignore a rule just to get back at a player? Un-freaking-believable. That concept is right out of the Old School book of rec league officiating.

We're officials. We don't play games with the rules to make a point. Calling a "T" on this play is a judgment call. Calling a violation that ISN'T a violation just to get back at a player is never the way to go. That's just wrong. No wonder our damn integrity gets questioned if some officials are out there pulling this kinda crap.

Terrible, terrible advice imo. I'm sure that 95% of the experienced officials on this forum will agree with me too.

Yeah - but how do you really feel?

[Mountaineer]

It was the second part of the comment that would have drawn the T from me. Especially since he turned and yelled at me and everyone heard it.