Best way to approach a referee

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Educate me, please.

Isn't the statement "Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation" a clear one? Tell me what I am missing.

Please educate me. You have your answer, now what do you want us to do about it? None of us were there and none of us likely have ever worked that league. Take this up with the TD and see if they it is going to make a difference. This is a summer league. I have almost every summer had a conversation with a coach or player over a confusing rule that would only happen during summer.

Originally Posted by dkmz17

BTW, in all other summer league games I have been involved in with this situation, the clock would not have started until it was touched after a miss or touched inbounds after a made free throw.

Well the problem with summer leagues is they are all different. I bet I have officiated in many different summer leagues as anyone here not one was the same. I am sure this was why the confusion you had with the official and I bet the official had worked in a league that used the rules as he informed you.

10,000 BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace

[dkmz17]

No, we did not lose the game. But it does rub me the wrong way when an official flatly refuses to calmly discuss a rule that does not appear to be a judgment call.

Accordingly, I was/am seeking advice from informed and thoughtful referees, which most on this site appear to be, save one OS. Most responses have been a great help, thank you.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

No, we did not lose the game. But it does rub me the wrong way when an official flatly refuses to calmly discuss a rule that does not appear to be a judgment call.

Accordingly, I was/am seeking advice from informed and thoughtful referees, which most on this site appear to be, save one OS. Most responses have been a great help, thank you.

Just curious. Is the coaching gig just a summer thing for you or are you also a high school coach in the regular season as well?

[dkmz17]

A summer thing only.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

No, we did not lose the game. But it does rub me the wrong way when an official flatly refuses to calmly discuss a rule that does not appear to be a judgment call.

What else was he going to discuss with you? He told you what the rule was as he saw it. Not much else to discuss. And discussing the rule was not going to likely change his mind if he felt he was right.

Originally Posted by dkmz17

A summer thing only.

That does explain a lot. Do not take that as a rip, you just do not have the same perspective as many coaches do during the summer.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Just for all who have read this post, the rules read,

"Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation."

You didn't state this was what the rules said in your original post. Many of the comments were based on this not being the case. Next time, give all the information that is meaningful and you will get straighter answers.

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

You didn't state this was what the rules said in your original post. Many of the comments were based on this not being the case. Next time, give all the information that is meaningful and you will get straighter answers.

Uhhh, he sure did. Post #1. But that's not the point, his questions were:


How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.

What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

Not was the rule right or wrong.

Lets apply it to a real NFHS game and say an Official kicks (no pun intended)the new AP arrow rule by not switching on a defensive kick ball. As educated as I have become using this forum, I know he kicked it. So:

• How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.
  
• What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by CoachP

So:

• How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.
  
• What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

Ans: Politely ask said referee if they would explain their interpretation of the call. Listen, don't interupt or argue, this would only get the hairs on the neck to stand upright. Once explanation is delivered (if referee decides they want to) Thank them and move on.

If you still don't understand the interpretation then go to the League Admin. for further explanation. Once again Thank them for their time.

All I can say is Arguing and complaining to an Official during a game will not get anyone anywhere. In the words of Dr Phil, "How has it worked for Ya up till now?"

Perhaps my answer is a little tongue in cheek, but this would sure be a nice change.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Uhhh, he sure did. Post #1. But that's not the point, his questions were:


How do you "handle" a referee that misapplies a rule etc., during a game, especially if it is a circumstance that will repeat during the game.


What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

How do you know the official misapplied the rule? Do you know how many times a coach thinks officials misapply rules only to be completely wrong? I have had many times where coaches were not aware of recent changes or variations from one level to another (e.g. Point of Interruption and Team Control Fouls). Most of those times the coaches are not willing to listen to me or my partner, they just want to argue how they know the rule or how long they have been coaching. I have even had coaches try to argue with me about basic rules like LGP and why I called a foul when the defender is "moving."

I would say coaches need to learn how to handle themselves rather than handling an official. The minute I start to give and explanation to a coach and that coach starts to interrupt me that will not go over very well with me. I know I will give explanation to anyone that is rational or calm. The minute I start getting told what I do not know (and I take a rules test every year and the coach likely does not know the color of the rulebook) a coach will lose credibility with me. That lack of credibility means during the course of the game I will tune them out and I will not be as helpful to them when they are complaining. Most of the time coaches are complaining about judgment calls and issues with the rules are not that big of a deal. I just get turned off very quickly by some coach that obviously is not aware of the subtle of the rules.

Peace

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How do you know the official misapplied the rule? Do you know how many times a coach thinks officials misapply rules only to be completely wrong? I have had many times where coaches were not aware of recent changes or variations from one level to another (e.g. Point of Interruption and Team Control Fouls). Most of those times the coaches are not willing to listen to me or my partner, they just want to argue how they know the rule or how long they have been coaching. I have even had coaches try to argue with me about basic rules like LGP and why I called a foul when the defender is "moving."

I would say coaches need to learn how to handle themselves rather than handling an official. The minute I start to give and explanation to a coach and that coach starts to interrupt me that will not go over very well with me. I know I will give explanation to anyone that is rational or calm. The minute I start getting told what I do not know (and I take a rules test every year and the coach likely does not know the color of the rulebook) a coach will lose credibility with me. That lack of credibility means during the course of the game I will tune them out and I will not be as helpful to them when they are complaining. Most of the time coaches are complaining about judgment calls and issues with the rules are not that big of a deal. I just get turned off very quickly by some coach that obviously is not aware of the subtle of the rules.

Peace

That's not what I'm trying say, Jeff. There is a difference between a coach arguing an officials judgement call, block/charge, fouls, etc. and him arguing a rule misinterp. In the OP, the official had it wrong because either HE has the rule wrong or HE doesn't know the diff between a live and a dead ball. True, most coaches that are the arguing type are arguing the judgement calls, not rules interps.

I would never in a million years pull out a rule book, as a coach, during a game to have a rules discussion. On the same token, I sureasheck hope an official wouldn't patronize me during a game by saying "read the rules coach". I have, and have passed the test.

I also understand completely what you are saying about the coaches learning the rules and how to handle themselves. I'd be willing to bet my most of my Varsity girls would score higher on the test than our Varsity boys coach.

Those kind of coaches do make "us good one's" look bad in the perception of officials. Just like there are the JMO's out there that make you guys look bad from the perception of us coaches.

I luckily have never had it happen as of yet, but if it did happen as explained, I will burn part of my halftime to discuss with a willing crew.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CoachP

That's not what I'm trying say, Jeff. There is a difference between a coach arguing an officials judgement call, block/charge, fouls, etc. and him arguing a rule misinterp. In the OP, the official had it wrong because either HE has the rule wrong or HE doesn't know the diff between a live and a dead ball. True, most coaches that are the arguing type are arguing the judgement calls, not rules interps.

I would never in a million years pull out a rule book, as a coach, during a game to have a rules discussion. On the same token, I sureasheck hope an official wouldn't patronize me during a game by saying "read the rules coach". I have, and have passed the test.

I also understand completely what you are saying about the coaches learning the rules and how to handle themselves. I'd be willing to bet my most of my Varsity girls would score higher on the test than our Varsity boys coach.

Those kind of coaches do make "us good one's" look bad in the perception of officials. Just like there are the JMO's out there that make you guys look bad from the perception of us coaches.

I luckily have never had it happen as of yet, but if it did happen as explained, I will burn part of my halftime to discuss with a willing crew.

I personally treat each coach as an individual. The only thing I may generalize about coaches is that they have an agenda for their team. I have never heard a coach complain about a call that went in their favor. Having said that for every officials that tells a coach, "Read the rulebook," I can give you many examples of coaches literally telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. Only for the coach or coaches to find out later that I was absolutely correct in my explanation or my supervisor to completely back me up on what I told them.

Also halftime is not the time I want to talk to any coach. If you want to talk, wait until the game is going on and even then I am not going to go out of my way to discuss a situation. The rules allow you to call a timeout to talk to an official under the right circumstances. If a coach is not aware of that rule, that is tough. It is also known that I am a very accommodating official as it relates to coaches when appropriate. I think the problem is coaches need to know that we all are not the same and we all do not have the same tolerance levels (which is not a bad thing). If you want to approach an official, raising your voice is not the way to do it and interrupting them is not a way to get on anyone's good side.

I had situation take place this summer that involved an unusual situation because it was a game during the summer. I had a coach trying to debate an issue that was not even relevant because the game was during the summer. I brought the two coaches together only to have one coach trying to debate the situation. He lost a lot of my good graces by his behavior.

Peace

[Adam]

I know for me, personally, whenever I do a league that has special rules (timing, backcourt defense, etc.) I'm flexible enough to know I might not have it right. I'm always willing to engage a coach to discuss the rule in question. In the end, however, I have to make a decision and stick with it. IOW, at some point the discussion needs to end (sooner rather than later), and I can't guarantee the coach is going to be able to convince. If the TD is right there, I'll ask him. If he's not, I'll make a decision on how I read the rule.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

I complained that the clock should not start until a throw in after made free throws or until it was touched by a player or touched the court after a miss. The referee told me that the ball became live and the clock started when he handed the ball to the shooter. When I complained again, he told me I needed to "read the rules" and insisted that the clock run.

What can or should be done by a coach in that circumstance?

He was right. You were wrong.

[dkmz17]

Originally Posted by Brad

He was right. You were wrong.

I totally disagree with that. There is no way that the clock restarts when the ball is handed to the shooter for a free throw. The rules clearly state that the clock restarts "...as it normally would after a dead ball."

[Brad]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

I totally disagree with that. There is no way that the clock restarts when the ball is handed to the shooter for a free throw. The rules clearly state that the clock restarts "...as it normally would after a dead ball."

You were right. I was wrong.



I conveniently skipped over that part of your post! LOL

Now I remember why I don't post here often... (1) It takes up too much time away from working and (2) I'm not right often enough!