Best way to approach a referee

[dkmz17]

Just for all who have read this post, the rules read,

"Regulation High School Activities Association rules will be followed with the following exceptions:
• 20 minute running clock except for last 2 minutes of each half, unless one team is ahead by 15 points. If lead falls below 15 points, clock will again stop. In addition, clock will stop on all technical fouls, injuries or timeouts (including officials TO). Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation."

No other exceptions listed in the rules apply to timing.

After the timeout ended and the teams returned to the court, play proceeded something like this:

Ref walks onto the court to administer free throws, hands the ball to the shooter and "circles" his finger at the timer to start the clock.

Coach says "I called timeout, the clock doesn't start yet!"

Ref: "Yes it does, the clock starts when I handed the ball to the shooter and the ball became live".

Coach: "No, it starts when it normally should after a dead ball"

Ref: "No, it starts now, you need to read the rules!"

At this point, what should a coach do, other than complain to the gym administrator?

[Adam]

All you have at this point is to talk to the tournament director or the game admin. Whoever is running the tournament. In the future, as the refs at the start of the game so no one is surprised.

[JugglingReferee]

It is an unfortunate event for a referee to deny you the chance to win the game fairly. I've had a similar situation happen when I was coaching: time came off the clock during a dead ball. I asked that he correct the clock and he did not.

All you can do it make it a learning moment for the official and hope that s/he doesn't do it again. It's just part of the collective knowledge of the game for everyone.

As for complaining to a higher authority, yes you can do that, but protests are rarely, if ever, heard at that level of ball.

You can turn it into a teaching moment for you players - you showing them that winning isn't everything and that you can act maturely.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I've had a similar situation happen when I was coaching: time came off the clock during a dead ball. I asked that he correct the clock and he did not.

Unless he had exact knowledge, he couldn't correct anything.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

It is an unfortunate event for a referee to deny you the chance to win the game fairly.

It's a bit extreme to claim that this was a case where the referee denied anyone the chance to win the game by starting the clock when the timeout was over. That's a stretch in most circumstances.

I worked several different summer leages and tournaments this summer and almost every one of them had subtle and not so subtle differences in their "special" rules that differed from NFHS rules. From weekend to weekend it was difficult to remember which "special" rules were in effect. Sometimes you forget one of those "special" rules or you remember how it was done the weekend before and deal with it the same way. Stuff happens.

But it is summer league and it isn't THAT important in the grand scheme of things that this one thing was missed in a girl's 9th/10th summer league game. I'm sure once the ref in question re-read the league rules after the fact, he realized he was wrong. But in no way did he deny anyone the chance to win the game by starting the clock when he did. Seems like this coach is blowing things a bit out of proportion on this.

[Splute]

dkmz17, I would like to know what the Association rules on this specific situation. If you find out, update us. IMO the Official maintained the intent of the running clock prior to the 2:00 minute mark; however, you do make an interesting point and that would have been a very smart move. I have read both sides from the other post and all make valid points, but it would be good to know what the association intended. Not to mention the forum gave good advice on how to approach officials.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Splute

dkmz17, I would like to know what the Association rules on this specific situation. If you find out, update us. IMO the Official maintained the intent of the running clock prior to the 2:00 minute mark; however, you do make an interesting point and that would have been a very smart move. I have read both sides from the other post and all make valid points, but it would be good to know what the association intended. Not to mention the forum gave good advice on how to approach officials.

I would hope and pray that there is not special ruling on this situation. It is a summer league and if anyone is spending this much time over what happens in a summer league, they really need to get some perspective. As I told a coach earlier this summer, "There are no banners hanging on the wall for games in June, talk to me when November starts." For God's sake many of the officials working these games would never work them during the regular season.

Peace

[Splute]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would hope and pray that there is not special ruling on this situation. It is a summer league and if anyone is spending this much time over what happens in a summer league, they really need to get some perspective. As I told a coach earlier this summer, "There are no banners hanging on the wall for games in June, talk to me when November starts." For God's sake many of the officials working these games would never work them during the regular season.

Peace

I am intriqued to know the rules completely, their intent and correct application regardless of the level of play. It facinates me what peoples intentions are when they say use NFHS rules "except".... then a host of problems arise. I enjoy reading about oddities in rules or their interpretations; thus why I read this forum. I would truly like to know what their intent was in this case, not that it requires a special ruling. But if was important enough for the post to be submitted so it may be important enough to them to find the correct answer.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Unless he had exact knowledge, he couldn't correct anything.

Thanks. Like I didn't know that. Trust me, I made sure he knew. He flat out failed to take care of business. Hey, it happens. A million chinese won't give a $4!t tomorrow.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would hope and pray that there is not special ruling on this situation. It is a summer league and if anyone is spending this much time over what happens in a summer league, they really need to get some perspective. As I told a coach earlier this summer, "There are no banners hanging on the wall for games in June, talk to me when November starts." For God's sake many of the officials working these games would never work them during the regular season.

Rut, does the NBA summer league have the same half-heartedness about the rules? All's I'm saying is that when drawing up league specific rules, they really gotta cover all possibilities. If they don't, then mistakes happen more easily. Why slack off the rules generation (and education), especially when ultimately it's the kids that suffer - by playing with an inconsistent ruleset.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Splute

I am intriqued to know the rules completely, their intent and correct application regardless of the level of play. It facinates me what peoples intentions are when they say use NFHS rules "except".... then a host of problems arise. I enjoy reading about oddities in rules or their interpretations; thus why I read this forum. I would truly like to know what their intent was in this case, not that it requires a special ruling. But if was important enough for the post to be submitted so it may be important enough to them to find the correct answer.

The issue is not how intrigued you are with the rules. Summer league rules are usually made up rules to keep games moving. Some want to shoot every FT and other leagues want to just keep things moving. I seriously doubt that there is a special interpreter from an association that is going to give a ruling that will be mean much of anything. As someone said, these rules change from week to week and many times have no rhyme or reason.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Rut, does the NBA summer league have the same half-heartedness about the rules? All's I'm saying is that when drawing up league specific rules, they really gotta cover all possibilities. If they don't, then mistakes happen more easily. Why slack off the rules generation (and education), especially when ultimately it's the kids that suffer - by playing with an inconsistent ruleset.

I would not compare the NBA summer league with a local HS or youth league in any way. For the most part summer league rules are created by a coach. Coaches might think of how they want something to go, but they do not consider all the possibilities of the rules as an official unless they have some background on a rules committee. I am not sure what you are expecting?

I have worked multiple leagues and tournaments whether it is for pay or whether it was at a camp, all rules and variation of the rules were completely different. The NF or the NCAA does not have sectioned summer league rules and games played in my state are not under a uniformed set of rules for the summer. The rules are going to change based on the objective of each league or tournament and that usually falls at the feet of the tournament director (who is often a coach).

I am really not sure what you expect to happen in cases like this?

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not compare the NBA summer league with a local HS or youth league in any way. For the most part summer league rules are created by a coach. Coaches might think of how they want something to go, but they do not consider all the possibilities of the rules as an official unless they have some background on a rules committee. I am not sure what you are expecting?

I have worked multiple leagues and tournaments whether it is for pay or whether it was at a camp, all rules and variation of the rules were completely different. The NF or the NCAA does not have sectioned summer league rules and games played in my state are not under a uniformed set of rules for the summer. The rules are going to change based on the objective of each league or tournament and that usually falls at the feet of the tournament director (who is often a coach).

I am really not sure what you expect to happen in cases like this?

Peace

It's a when in Rome thing, then.

In the summer leagues/tournaments/etc... that I've done, the rules are laid out quite well. Even for the summer football league I play in, a casebook was created!

Of course the NF or NCAA doesn't have a summer league rule. Why would they? They have a tough enough time managing one ruleset.

Regardless of the objective of the league, if a rule is not clear, it is open to interpretation. Thank God in 2 other leagues I'm involved with, our officiating group writes the league's rules differences and has the league approve them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

It's a when in Rome thing, then.

In the summer leagues/tournaments/etc... that I've done, the rules are laid out quite well. Even for the summer football league I play in, a casebook was created!

You really are making this waaaaayyyyyy too complicated. We are talking about leagues where kids play in warm-up jerseys with absolutely no numbers. And in most cases players cannot even foul out of a game. Most leagues that I have seen in my state and in other states when I have attended camp, was to allow the players an opportunity to play against competition so they can improve individually or as a team.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Regardless of the objective of the league, if a rule is not clear, it is open to interpretation. Thank God in 2 other leagues I'm involved with, our officiating group writes the league's rules differences and has the league approve them.

Once again you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I have never been in a summer league where any association has any kind of say as to how a league or tournament is run during the summer or off season. These leagues are sponsored by the schools and any other business that wants to provide money to help run the league. I am really kind of curious why anyone would want to have such a standardize rules set for something that is basically practice. I have been involved with leagues that did not want any dunking period. That is not apart of any normal rule, but the school did not want kids damaging their equipment. I bet that the TD is not going to make a big deal out of this at all. If this was a problem, they should have got it resolved before the game was over. After that most TD are not going to ultimately care that deeply about the results. AAU has more standardization in most cases.

Peace

[dkmz17]

Educate me, please.

Isn't the statement "Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation" a clear one? Tell me what I am missing.

BTW, in all other summer league games I have been involved in with this situation, the clock would not have started until it was touched after a miss or touched inbounds after a made free throw.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Educate me, please.

Isn't the statement "Clock does not restart until it would in a normal dead ball situation" a clear one? Tell me what I am missing.

BTW, in all other summer league games I have been involved in with this situation, the clock would not have started until it was touched after a miss or touched inbounds after a made free throw.

The guy got it wrong. Are you going to lose sleep all summer because of that one call? I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you lost the game. But you didn't lose because of that one thing. It was a summer league game. Get over it.