You make this call, too

[bob jenkins]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks
[B]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Rookie Chimes in:

Assuming the whole end line thing meant as A was throwing the ball in after a made basket by B....isnt this a throw in violation on A. My NF Book is at work so if someone else has the exact verbage, feel free. My recollection is that a throw in has to be to a player "In Bounds". Since B was OOB and no one else touched the ball....I'm thinking it's B's ball at the POI...in this case, wherever A threw it from.

Now, imagine the Howler Monkeys on that call!

I'm not sure since I dont have my book....Anyone?

Larks

As long as the throw-in touches a player, whether inbounds or out-of-bounds, it's not a throw-in violation.

Award the ball just as you would on any out-of-bounds situation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by daves
I don't believe this would be a plane violation warning or T for B. But if B was a player standing OOB it could be a T for not all players returning to the court at the same time. I don't believe the plane warning comes into effect unless it's a warning for the line that you're calling. For instance. Is it a warning for a player to have his hands over the opposite end line or the side line? How would you see it or call it if it was? If B was inbounds and caught the ball and his momentum carried him OOB as someone has already mentioned, then it would be A's ball on the sideline. Correct me(and I'm sure you will) if I'm wrong.

FIrst, "not all players returning to the court at the same time" refers to a time when all players are legally off the court -- a TO or an intermission. 10-1-9. So, that's not relevant here.

Second, it's only the throw-in boundary-line plane that matters. 9-2-11.

[APHP]

It is too late for me too look up all the info I need to show/convince you that once the ball is releaed on a throw-in the defender can reach across the end line. I will complete this post tomorrow. But as food for thought, when does the throw-in count end??? Why does it end at this time?
All fouls/violations concerning a throw-in in the rule/case book are all when team A has the ball in their possession (not team control) but possession. Once the ball is released it's anyone's ball. There is a case play in a NFHS manual I have. I will look it up tommorow report back to you as to what book & year. Also, here is South Carolina it is on the SCBOA (South Carolinas Basketball Officials Association) examination just about every year. Trust me coach!! Or you will lose this one.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by APHP

All fouls/violations concerning a throw-in in the rule/case book are all when team A has the ball in their possession (not team control) but possession.

This is simply not true. A personal foul can happen anytime after the ball has been made alive, whether it's been released by the thrower or not. Additionally, it's a throw-in violation if the thrower does not throw the ball directly into the court. That is, the ball is released (so no possession) and then goes out of bounds before anybody else touches it. So that goes directly against your statement.

There is nothing in the NF rulebook that says that the restriction against the defense touching the ball OOB ends when the throw-in is released.

Chuck

[daves]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

FIrst, "not all players returning to the court at the same time" refers to a time when all players are legally off the court -- a TO or an intermission. 10-1-9. So, that's not relevant here.

Second, it's only the throw-in boundary-line plane that matters. 9-2-11.

Perhaps that part of the rule doesn't apply but what about the rule where it says that you have to return to the court immediately if they are OOB. I don't have my rule back handy but standing OOB doesn't sound like they are returning to the court immediately. I don't think that player B can be standing OOB in this case.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by APHP
It is too late for me too look up all the info I need to show/convince you that once the ball is releaed on a throw-in the defender can reach across the end line. I will complete this post tomorrow. But as food for thought, when does the throw-in count end??? Why does it end at this time?
All fouls/violations concerning a throw-in in the rule/case book are all when team A has the ball in their possession (not team control) but possession. Once the ball is released it's anyone's ball. There is a case play in a NFHS manual I have. I will look it up tommorow report back to you as to what book & year. Also, here is South Carolina it is on the SCBOA (South Carolinas Basketball Officials Association) examination just about every year. Trust me coach!! Or you will lose this one.

First, I trust you - cause I was the first to say it wasn't a T

Citations from 9-2-11. . . The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

Penalty (Article 11 only):
1. The first violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane by an opponent(s) of the thrower shall result in a team warning for delay being given (one warning per team per game). The warning does not result in the loss of the opportunity to move along the end line when and if applicable.
2. The second or additional violations will result in a technical foul assessed to the offending team. See 10-1-10 Penalty.
3. If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touches or dislodges the ball, a technical foul shall be charged to the offender. No warning for delay required. See 10-3-12 Penalty.


It is clearly a violation to step on the line. But I think it is a big stretch to think that a defender standing on the line and touching a released ball is a T. 10-3-2 cross references the violation in 9-2-3. Although 9-2- penalty 3 does not give all of the details of the violation, the penalty section on breaking the plane references the violation in 9-2-11, which says you cannot penetrate plane until ball released. So I think it is wrong to think that the penalty provision changes the meaning of 9-2-11.

If the defender was on the throw-in line prior to the throw and you want to call it, you have a warning 1st, then a T thereafter. If the defender touches the line and catches the ball after it is released, you have nothing but a common OOB violation.

BTW - does anyone know why repeated violations of 9-2-9/10 are a T? These are violations by the thrower which cause a turnover. No loss of advantage (as there is when the defender breaks the plane). Why is there a need on these particular violations to render an extra penalty? Coach is going to run their butt off in practice the next day anyway if they keep screwing up. That and the turnover should be penalty enough!

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Citations from 9-2-11. . . The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

But notice that it doesn't say he can touch the BALL. It just says that he can break the plane after the ball is released; maybe b/c his momentum carries him over the line. Nowhere does it say that a defensive player may ever touch a throw-in before the ball is over the playing surface. And it specifically does say that a defensive player may not touch the ball while it's OOB.

Additionally, it's a throw-in violation for the a teammate of the thrower to reach across the OOB boundary and catch the throw-in pass 9.2.2B). So why would it be legal for the defensive team to do this?

Chuck

[bigwhistle]

Question to stir the pot.....

When, on a throw-in situation, does the OOB plane go away and is now considered just a line? Is it when the pass from the thrower is released? Does the ball have to cross the plane?

If the plane disappears as soon as the ball is released, then there is no problem with B touching the ball before it crosses what was previously a plane.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
BTW - does anyone know why repeated violations of 9-2-9/10 are a T? These are violations by the thrower which cause a turnover. No loss of advantage (as there is when the defender breaks the plane). Why is there a need on these particular violations to render an extra penalty? Coach is going to run their butt off in practice the next day anyway if they keep screwing up. That and the turnover should be penalty enough!

I think this is similar to the T for repeated disconcertion. If the kids are doing this on every throw-in, and it seems like the only purpose is to hold up the game and make a travesty of it, a T can be assessed.

[APHP]

Chuck--You misunderstood my statement an or I just did not make it clear enough. I should have stated "all violations/fouls that occur durng a throw-in and are throw-in related are while team A has possession..i.e intentional foul, line violation, etc. No where is there a case play/rule that address fouls/violaitions by team B once the ball is released by team A. Because it is not a violation. I have found the info I need to clear this up. Just don't have time to type it in now--on lunch break. Will send it in tonight. Continue to trust me Chuck.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by APHP
No where is there a case play/rule that address fouls/violaitions by team B once the ball is released by team A.

Ok, this is different from what you originally posted. But I think you're also missing the point that I was trying to make. Two points, really.

1) There is a specific prohibition against the defense touching the ball while the thrower has it OOB. There is also a rule that specifically says the prohibition against breaking the OOB plane has ended once the ball is released. But nowhere is there anything that says the prohibition on touching the ball OOB has ended. So I think that the defense is still not allowed to touch the ball OOB, even if it's been released.

2) It is a violation for the offense to reach through the OOB plane and touch or catch the ball, even after it's been released on the throw-in (case 9.2.2B). So why would it be legal for the defense to do this, if it's illegal for the offense to do it? That would not seem to make sense.

Either way, my position is that it's a technical foul for the defense to touch the ball during a throw-in before it crosses the OOB plane.

Chuck

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

I think this is similar to the T for repeated disconcertion. If the kids are doing this on every throw-in, and it seems like the only purpose is to hold up the game and make a travesty of it, a T can be assessed.

Mark
Thanks for your thoughts - you gave me two possibilities that I hadn't considered. Unfortunately, I don't think either of them are why this rule is here. (but I remain at a loss to explain it myself - so I am open to more takers on this one!)


Repeated disconcertion affects the shooter and may cause problems on other free throws, i.e., shooters begin to anticipate being disconcerted, and thus are disconcerted when attempting every free throw. Your theory on making a travesty of the game is interesting to consider, but I don't think it's the reason either. First, there are many ways a travesty can be made of a game and this violation is not specifically cited as an example of such activity. If travesty was the reason, the rule would probably reference it, e.g., "repeated violations of 9-2-9 to the point that it makes a travesty of the game." Plus, there is no need for a specific rule related to throw-ins because the travesty rule already covers this problem and this is a bizarre and rather unlikely way to make a travesty of the game.

Again, the 9-2-9/10 inbounds provision for a T is the only T for a violation that I can think of where the offending team is already penalized and the other team does not have a clear potential loss of advantage from the violation. Any other thoughts as to why this provision exists?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
1) There is a specific prohibition against the defense touching the ball while the thrower has it OOB. There is also a rule that specifically says the prohibition against breaking the OOB plane has ended once the ball is released. But nowhere is there anything that says the prohibition on touching the ball OOB has ended. So I think that the defense is still not allowed to touch the ball OOB, even if it's been released.

By my reading, 9-2-11 only applies "until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass." Therefore, the penalties and warnings that say Article 11 only only apply before the ball has been released.

2) It is a violation for the offense to reach through the OOB plane and touch or catch the ball, even after it's been released on the throw-in (case 9.2.2B). So why would it be legal for the defense to do this, if it's illegal for the offense to do it? That would not seem to make sense.

Might not make sense, but that's the rule. 10.3.12B indicates a technical charged to B2, but only because the ball was not released onto the court. There is no rule which states it is illegal for any member of team B to have a hand past the boundary after the ball is released.