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-   -   Does this constitute fighting ? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/36427-does-constitute-fighting.html)

Old School Thu Jul 12, 2007 06:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Absolutely great, you moron. The only thing that you absolutely couldn't call on this play was a freaking technical foul. Live-ball <b>contact</b> fouls have to be a <b>PERSONAL</b> foul of some kind. The <b>RULES</b> say that you could call either a common personal foul, an intentional <b>personal</b> foul or a flagrant <b>personal</b> foul. Instead, Mr. WannabeAnOfficialSomeday calls the only thing that the rules won't allow to be called---a <b>technical</b> foul of some kind.
I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!

Nevadaref Thu Jul 12, 2007 06:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!
That's because there is no one watching and making write-ups of the officials in rec ball. You can just screw up whatever you wish.

And while a technical foul can be charged during a live ball, one cannot be charged for CONTACT during a live ball. That is the point that JR is making to you. If there had NOT been any CONTACT on the play, then you could have assessed a T, but with CONTACT a technical foul is not permissible by rule in that situation.

Nevadaref Thu Jul 12, 2007 06:59pm
Here's the right way to do it. This is what JR is telling you. Get it now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Had a similiar situation where after a mad scrammble for the ball, 2 players down on court. Ball slips away and is now heading in other direction, fast break. I'm old lead going new trail. Because of physical activity on the scrammble, I stay with 2 players getting up off the floor in backcourt. Player A5 shoves B3 back down to the floor and gets up and runs down the court. I suppose I could have ejected BillyBob for the shove, and I thought about it and reason that the shove was more than a common foul, but less than a flagrant. So I called an <STRIKE>technical</STRIKE> intentional foul. Turned out Billy Dad was the scorekeeper and did not like the physical play of the incident, and he did not see ole BillyBob shove other player. It was early Sunday morning, 1st game out the gate, 9:00am. Rival schools and either these parents didn't like having to get up early Sunday morning or they all had bad Saturday nights. I will never forget this game as everybody in the gym was pissed off except for me. I was taking it easy, easy like Sunday morning.....but I still gave ole BillyBob an <STRIKE>technical</STRIKE> intentional and I remeber telling all the parents, you all need to be in church.

Have a nice day....

Jurassic Referee Thu Jul 12, 2007 08:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
I respectfully disagree, you can call a live ball technical foul. Excuse me but isn't that what a flagrant foul is, a live ball TF? Whatever, the fact of the matter is I did it, now get over it. I know I sure have and I didn't get written up for it either. haha!!!
Lah me....

You don't have a clue what a flagrant foul is either, do you? :rolleyes: There are flagrant <b>personal</b> fouls and there are flagrant <b>technical</b> fouls. Real officials know that. Real officials also know the difference. Real officials know when to call them also. RecLeague warriors don't know the rules. And they don't care either because...well....all they work are rec leagues. Who writes up rec league officials?

Am I surprised that you called a technical foul for live-ball contact, JMO? Not in the least! Am I surprised that you don't know what a flagrant foul is either? Not in the least! I would have been very surprised though if you had got it right.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Jul 12, 2007 08:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
MTD,
May I inquire what exactly was "still illegal" about the cast since it is permissible for players to wear hard casts in an NFHS game if it is properly padded and there is a medical release present. (4-2-1c and play ruling 4.2.1 Situation C) What specifically about the situation made you withhold referee approval?


4.2.1 Situation C: A player wears a hard cast on an arm or a hard splint on a finger that has been covered with a foam-rubber padding and then wrapped securely with a soft elastic athletic bandage. RULING: Legal. Players may participate if wearing a hard cast or hard splint if properly padded and with medical permission and referee approval.

NevadaRef:

The year that this game was played was two years before the rule was changed to what it is now. At the time of the game in question the Rule and Casebook Play prohibited the wearing of casts period.

MTD, Sr.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Jul 12, 2007 08:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Had a similiar situation where after a mad scrammble for the ball, 2 players down on court. Ball slips away and is now heading in other direction, fast break. I'm old lead going new trail. Because of physical activity on the scrammble, I stay with 2 players getting up off the floor in backcourt. Player A5 shoves B3 back down to the floor and gets up and runs down the court. I suppose I could have ejected BillyBob for the shove, and I thought about it and reason that the shove was more than a common foul, but less than a flagrant. So I called a technical foul. Turned out Billy Dad was the scorekeeper and did not like the physical play of the incident, and he did not see ole BillyBob shove other player. It was early Sunday morning, 1st game out the gate, 9:00am. Rival schools and either these parents didn't like having to get up early Sunday morning or they all had bad Saturday nights. I will never forget this game as everybody in the gym was pissed off except for me. I was taking it easy, easy like Sunday morning.....but I still gave ole BillyBob a technical and I remeber telling all the parents, you all need to be in church.

Have a nice day....

Old School:

Illegal contact WHILE THE BALL IS LIVE is a PERSONAL foul, NOT a TECHNICAL foul. Read Rule 4 in both the NFHS and NCAA rules books.

MTD, Sr.

Mark Padgett Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Lah me....

You don't have a clue what a flagrant foul is either, do you? :rolleyes: There are flagrant <b>personal</b> fouls and there are flagrant <b>technical</b> fouls. Real officials know that. Real officials also know the difference. Real officials know when to call them also. RecLeague warriors don't know the rules. And they don't care either because...well....all they work are rec leagues. Who writes up rec league officials?

Am I surprised that you called a technical foul for live-ball contact, JMO? Not in the least! Am I surprised that you don't know what a flagrant foul is either? Not in the least! I would have been very surprised though if you had got it right.
I'm not surprised either. I heard that once when a player faked a free throw, he called a balk. :eek:

Boiler14 Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Old School:

Are you telling me and everybody else that you would not make a warranted ejection of little Billy because his Grandpa and Aunt Mary traveled 100 miles to see him play for the very first time?

MTD, Sr.
As AD at our MS we had a cheerleader become ineligible for one week for grades. Just so happened her grandparents were coming in from Arizona and this was the only game they could see.

Besides the fact I didn't believe the story and was sorry if it was actually true, we couldn't let her cheer.

Turned out this was the best thing that happened to her as she got the message and kept her grades up the rest of the year. I wish all student-athletes would get the hint.

As an aside...(some) cheer moms are a different breed.

Old School Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Lah me....

You don't have a clue what a flagrant foul is either, do you? :rolleyes: There are flagrant <b>personal</b> fouls and there are flagrant <b>technical</b> fouls. Real officials know that. Real officials also know the difference. Real officials know when to call them also. RecLeague warriors don't know the rules. And they don't care either because...well....all they work are rec leagues. Who writes up rec league officials?

Am I surprised that you called a technical foul for live-ball contact, JMO? Not in the least! Am I surprised that you don't know what a flagrant foul is either? Not in the least! I would have been very surprised though if you had got it right.
Real officials don't spend all their time looking for mistakes of other officials. Real officials don't try to make themselves look better at the expense of others. Real officials don't berate other officials in the profession just because they got a call wrong. As far as the call I made. I got news for you. It was my call, I made it, right or wrong. I upgraded the call to technical. Might not have been the correct thing to do, but guess what, it's a done deal now and I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade another call to technical if I felt warrented. Oh, and for the record, the technical foul was for unsportsmanlike conduct, I upgraded that one too.

Silly Master Monkey

IREFU2 Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Real officials don't spend all their time looking for mistakes of other officials. Real officials don't try to make themselves look better at the expense of others. Real officials don't berate other officials in the profession just because they got a call wrong. As far as the call I made. I got news for you. It was my call, I made it, right or wrong. I upgraded the call to technical. Might not have been the correct thing to do, but guess what, it's a done deal now and I wouldn't hesitate to upgrade another call to technical if I felt warrented. Oh, and for the record, the technical foul was for unsportsmanlike conduct, I upgraded that one too.

Silly Master Monkey
Sometimes you have to ignore those who slam others.....it was your game, your judgement and if you are fine with the call you made, so be it. If you look at Rule 4-18-2, it clearly states that an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. So if you felt that was the case, then good call. Officiating is all subjective!

Old School Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
That's because there is no one watching and making write-ups of the officials in rec ball. You can just screw up whatever you wish.
Disagree. I guess you could call it rec-league but it was 2 HS teams, intramuals. If I was to make a mistake, there are plenty of people there at the event, scorekeepers, coaches, etc. that would let you know you made a mistake.

Quote:
And while a technical foul can be charged during a live ball, one cannot be charged for CONTACT during a live ball. That is the point that JR is making to you. If there had NOT been any CONTACT on the play, then you could have assessed a T, but with CONTACT a technical foul is not permissible by rule in that situation.
I hate to bust you and JR bubble but officially, the call was for unsportsmanlike conduct. I upgraded it, so now after removing the egg on your face. You got anything else you want to say I screwed up.

Silly monkey....

Jurassic Referee Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2
Sometimes you have to ignore those who slam others.....it was your game, your judgement and if you are fine with the call you made, so be it. If you look at Rule 4-18-2, it clearly states that an attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act towards an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. So if you felt that was the case, then good call. Officiating is all subjective!
Sigh.....

How can it be a good call when there was <freaking</b> contact involved? And if you want to involve "fighting", then you'd better be throwing <b>two</b> players out also.

It's not a matter of slamming somebody. It's trying to get the rules <b>right</b> for all those that read this site.

Methinks you need to learn the basics also. Posts like yours don't help when it comes to the teaching side of this forum.

IREFU2 Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Sigh.....

How can it be a good call when there was <FREAKING< b>contact involved? And if you want to involve "fighting", then you'd better be throwing two players out also.

Methinks you need to learn the basics also.
Why are you so critical about everything? Bash, bash, bash......you are a respected official, but you the way you come across makes people cringe when you respond. PM me if you would like to learn some people skills.

Jurassic Referee Fri Jul 13, 2007 08:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School

I hate to bust you and JR bubble but officially, the call was for unsportsmanlike conduct. I upgraded it, so now after removing the egg on your face. You got anything else you want to say I screwed up.
Yup, you completely screwed up. The rules won't allow you to call an unsportsmanlike conduct technical foul for illegal contact during a live ball.

You didn't "upgrade" squat. You made a call that the rules say can't be made. That's because you don't <b>know</b> the rules.

The rules references for the non-silly monkeys that actually own rule books are NFHS rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-5b&c.

Jurassic Referee Fri Jul 13, 2007 09:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IREFU2
Why are you so critical about everything? Bash, bash, bash......you are a respected official, but you the way you come across makes people cringe when you respond. PM me if you would like to learn some people skills.
I'm critical of people that <b>deliberately</b> post something that is completely false, rules-wise. Part of the idea behind this site is the advancement of officiating knowledge. Anyone posting nonsense that is obviously wrong per the rules does absolutely nothing to help officiating knowledge.

If you want to say that the call that was made by Old School was a good call, even though that call was completely wrong by rule, hey, be my guest. Don't let the fact that some other rules-knowledgeable guys like Nevada and MTD Sr. disagree completely with you also. Don't get bent out of shape though when it gets pointed out that you are as wrong as Old School was.

Some answers aren't "opinions". They are either right or wrong according to the written rules. This particular one is a no-brainer. You can't call a technical foul for the live-ball contact as described, no matter what you and Old school think. And insisting that you can do so without any rules backing at all is ludicrous.

Officiating isn't objective when you call something that the rules won't allow to be called. You can't make up your own rules, believe it or not.

Jmo......like it or not.


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