First Forfeit

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

1) I really wasn't counting up "warnings". Nothing was going on except FT's being shot so the game wasn't being delayed. She was told to stop the first time and didn't. I told her she had to sit before the ball was put back in play and didn't. Yes...I may have told her she had to sit down a few times, but there was no need to whack her until play was ready to resume. That is just my opinion in this case.

2) I guess this just tells me that unless you are actually at the situation you really can't assume you would do anything different. Putting things in words doesn't tell you what the emotion (or lack thereof) of any situation described and that is an important element.
I say this sincerely because I really can't imagine many other veterans would have dumped her much quicker based on what happened. We gave her ample time to comply (without delaying the game) which is alot better than quick trigger in my book.

1) Nothing was going on? Read NFHS rule 10-5NOTES1 lately? After losing their coaching box privileges, the head coach is not supposed to be on their feet during FT's, unless it's to do some coaching duties that are explicitly laid out in the rules. As far as I can see, b!tching at the officials isn't one of the coaching duties listed. Loss of coaching box privileges applies to free throws.

2) I don't need to be at this situation to have my opinion. Reading about it is enough. I'm a veteran. I wouldn't dream of ever letting a coach get away with that kind of nonsense. She dared you multi-times to follow up on your warnings, and neither you or your partner had the...um...testicular fortitude to stand up to her. Why warn her at all if you're not gonna do anything about it? By your own admission, there was at least SIX warnings given out, and absolutely nothing was done after the first FIVE. No wonder she ignored you. If you didn't follow up on your first bunch of warnings, why would she expect that you'd all-of-a-sudden decide to say "Enuff's enuff".

You wanted comments. You got mine. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I really didn't expect you to like or agree with it.

[Boiler14]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Nothing was going on? Read NFHS rule 10-5NOTES1 lately? After losing their coaching box privileges, the head coach is not supposed to be on their feet during FT's, unless it's to do some coaching duties that are explicitly laid out in the rules. As far as I can see, b!tching at the officials isn't one of the coaching duties listed. Loss of coaching box privileges applies to free throws.

2) I don't need to be at this situation to have my opinion. Reading about it is enough. I'm a veteran. I wouldn't dream of ever letting a coach get away with that kind of nonsense. She dared you multi-times to follow up on your warnings, and neither you or your partner had the...um...testicular fortitude to stand up to her. Why warn her at all if you're not gonna do anything about it? By your own admission, there was at least SIX warnings given out, and absolutely nothing was done after the first FIVE. No wonder she ignored you. If you didn't follow up on your first bunch of warnings, why would she expect that you'd all-of-a-sudden decide to say "Enuff's enuff".

You wanted comments. You got mine. Sorry, but that's my opinion. I really didn't expect you to like or agree with it.

I don't think I was "wanting" comments. I expect them, but I was just telling a story of something unusual that happened. I'm not offended by anyone wanting to tell me how they would have reacted differently. However, unless you see certain situations play out I don't think everything is black and white as it appears to some.

Look, if we tossed her sooner I don't think we would have had the support of anyone. The super who these teams paid would have thought it was quick. The college coaches watching would have thought the same. Joe Public would have thought we were just there to make a quick buck and we could care less. Not that we're concerned with how things would be perceived, but it is important to have support (especially when you have three games left to do in the same building).

IMO it was better to not overreact but to slow things down and if I have to try to bend over backwards to keep the game going I'll do it...even if it is a fault to some.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

The college coaches watching would have thought the same.

I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.

They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.

They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.

True dat too.

[Boiler14]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I bet those college coaches were wondering why you guys didn't just dispatch her.
They didn't come all that way to see her work on her coaching style.

We actually had to pass them after the game was over. One looked at us and said, "You guys tried." I thought that was a good summary of the whole ordeal.

Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

We actually had to pass them after the game was over. One looked at us and said, "You guys tried." I thought that was a good summary of the whole ordeal.

Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.

I do my fair share of AAU. If an assignor doesn't like the way I handle the games they don't ask me back. Every summer I turn down more than I take.

btw, I don't agree that what amounts to "nice try" is a ringing endorsement.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

Look, reality is this is a situation that is not very likely to happen in school ball. Too many people would get the coach out of the gym so the game can continue. AAU is its own beast. Those of you who do rec and summer league have stated that too. When teams pay to play they think the rules are different. We know they aren't and that sometimes creates the problems for these types of games.

Boiler, it's not a matter of any official being hard-azzed or anything like that. The point that some of us are trying to get across is simply trying to explain what a warning, any warning, actually is. You tell somebody that what they are doing will not be tolerated. You then explain what the consequences will be if they fail to listen to that warning. Now, if you fail to follow up with the consequences, then there was no use at all in issuing that warning in the first place. Nobody is looking for or wants to get into a coach/official confrontation. If you do get into one though, it should be handled quickly and decisively.

Just wanted to make that clear. Summer or rec league ball is no different imo when it comes to having to keep the games under control.

It's like telling your 2-year old "I really, really mean it this time". They know when you're not serious.

[blindzebra]

How much better would it have been if you did things the way the mechanics and rules tell us to do it?

Coach gets T.

You tell her she lost her right to stand and walk away.

At this point she chases you continuing to yell, at which point everyone in the gym sees a professional official and an out of control coach.

If that wasn't the second T, by the time the ball was to be put in play after the FTs, she had better be sitting...if not, calmly turn, whistle and whack.

At this point she knows she is ejected, and if she doesn't start leaving immediately, again you calmly tell the table, loud enough for her to hear, "Give me a minute and if she's still here, that's ball game."

You get away from the table and watch the players and benches, until she either complies or the minute is up.

[KingTripleJump]

After reading all of these replies, I still have one question.


What university did she play for?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Boiler14

Look, if we tossed her sooner I don't think we would have had the support of anyone. The super who these teams paid would have thought it was quick. The college coaches watching would have thought the same. Joe Public would have thought we were just there to make a quick buck and we could care less. Not that we're concerned with how things would be perceived, but it is important to have support (especially when you have three games left to do in the same building).

There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.

Originally Posted by Boiler14

IMO it was better to not overreact but to slow things down and if I have to try to bend over backwards to keep the game going I'll do it...even if it is a fault to some.

Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.

Peace

[Boiler14]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.



Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.

Peace

Since this was my forfeit, as the thread stated, I can't say I thought a whole lot about what others would think. It wasn't until typing this that I even brought the fans into my thinking. The super was really the only true concern I had, but I do know if he didn't give us his support he would have probably been looking for other officials to finish out his tournament.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There in lies the problem. You should not be worried about what Joe Public thinks at all. They are not the people that have your best interests at heart. Who gives a damn what someone thinks you are there for. And if you would have just T'd her up, everyone would have known these guys are not playing around today. Fans are bias and have agendas. Who cares what they think.

Throwing a coach out is not over-reacting. My partner last night threw out a coach for simply cursing at him in front of his players. We do not have to take that and certainly they are not paying us enough to take that kind of abuse during the summer time.

It sounds to me like you are worried about what others think rather than doing what is right for the game or the situation this coach put you in.

Well, that saves me some writing....

What he said.

[Adam]

Maybe, just maybe, if you popped her as soon as she refused to sit down the first time, she'd have known you were serious about the whole "You gotta leave" thing and she'd have left.

Maybe not.