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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 12:27am
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What would you do now?



I handled this correctly as far as I can see. But I will see what you guys think I should have done or should do in the future.

A1 gets fouled in A's backcourt by B1. B1 who is visibly upset complains outwardly and gets called for a T as well. A1 is selected by A's coach to shoot the T FTs. A1 misses the first, then makes the second FT. Then the scorers table tells the officials, that the first common foul by B1 put A in the bonus.

What do you do now? I will tell you what I did after a few responses.
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 12:40am
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My tendency would be to shoot the FT's with the lane cleared, and then give the ball back to A at the division line.

But I can't see that this is allowed by 2-10. It looks like you should shoot the FT's with the ball being live if the shot is missed, or turning over if they are both made. Hm...
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 12:43am
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Sounds like a correctable error to me. A1 should get 1-1 with the lanes cleared. Then A should get the ball at the division line for a throw in.
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 01:58am
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This is a correctable error, 2-10-1a, failure to award a merited FT.
You can still clean this up, since it must be corrected during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started.
Simply award the 1 & 1, after the 2nd technical FT with no players along the lane.
Then give the ball to A at the division line for a throw-in.

Under no circumstances should you say, "Okay, the first FT was the first shot of the 1&1. Since you missed it, the 2nd FT was the first technical FT."

I hope you handled the first way that I posted and not the second.

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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 02:45am
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TH is correct.

This happen today and how I explained it to the coaches.

We of course had the lane cleared because we thought we were just suppose to shoot the Technical Foul shots. It was after the shots that we realized we were suppose to shoot the 1 & 1. So of course, we had already shot the T shots and I told the coaches that this was a "correctable error situation" and we will not shoot the 1 & 1 with the lane cleared again. A1 made the first one, and made the second one. Then we gave the ball back to A and we went from there.

It did not go over well, but it was the correct way to handle it. And if anyone is still confused, this is under Rule 2-10-1a: Failure to award a merited FT.

But normally you should shoot the fouls in the order in which they happen. And if we were aware or the table informed us in time we would have shot the 1 and 1 first, then the T second.

I love this game
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 07:10am
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Re: TH is correct.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
This happen today and how I explained it to the coaches.

We of course had the lane cleared because we thought we were just suppose to shoot the Technical Foul shots. It was after the shots that we realized we were suppose to shoot the 1 & 1. So of course, we had already shot the T shots and I told the coaches that this was a "correctable error situation" and we will not shoot the 1 & 1 with the lane cleared again. A1 made the first one, and made the second one. Then we gave the ball back to A and we went from there.

It did not go over well, but it was the correct way to handle it. And if anyone is still confused, this is under Rule 2-10-1a: Failure to award a merited FT.

But normally you should shoot the fouls in the order in which they happen. And if we were aware or the table informed us in time we would have shot the 1 and 1 first, then the T second.

I love this game
Gee,Rut,guess who quoted the following over on the Mcgriff board?
Qoute-"I disagree completely.These situations happen for the most part because officals fall asleep.If you keep focus,it is very difficult to find yourself in these mistakes.
For examples of correctable error situations:
1)failure to award a merited free throw.You can easily prevent this by just knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what kind of foul.
Dead ball fouls are the time you should do the most officiating.These situations do not just happen,and if they do the problem is YOU,not the people around you.
Yes,these situations can just happen,but not without help from the officials.It is your job to run the game.If you cannot run the game,maybe you should not be out out there." End of quote!
The winning responder gets to do girls' games for the rest of the year.Sorry,Rut,the devil made me do it!:
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 11:25am
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Let's say you discover the error between the first and second technical FT. Would you shoot the 1-and-1, then do the 2nd technical FT, or would you finish the T, then do the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 03:15pm
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Rut. Even though the free throws were shot in the wrong order... you still have a dead ball at the end of the free throws. The lanes should be cleared for all of the attempts and then the ball is awarded back to team A {because of the "T"} at 1/2 court after all the attempts are done.
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 03:36pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Gee,Rut,guess who quoted the following over on the Mcgriff board?
Qoute-"I disagree completely.These situations happen for the most part because officals fall asleep.If you keep focus,it is very difficult to find yourself in these mistakes.
For examples of correctable error situations:
1)failure to award a merited free throw.You can easily prevent this by just knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what kind of foul.
Dead ball fouls are the time you should do the most officiating.These situations do not just happen,and if they do the problem is YOU,not the people around you.
Yes,these situations can just happen,but not without help from the officials.It is your job to run the game.If you cannot run the game,maybe you should not be out out there."
Hmmm...I'm not sure but I believe a J.Rutledge made those comments on the McGriff board. Would I be correct, Dino?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Let's say you discover the error between the first and second technical FT. Would you shoot the 1-and-1, then do the 2nd technical FT, or would you finish the T, then do the 1-and-1 with the lane cleared?
I guess, by rule, you should stop and shoot the 1&1. But I plead the 5th.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 03:58pm
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Thumbs down At least put it into context.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Gee,Rut,guess who quoted the following over on the Mcgriff board?
Qoute-"I disagree completely.These situations happen for the most part because officals fall asleep.If you keep focus,it is very difficult to find yourself in these mistakes.
For examples of correctable error situations:
1)failure to award a merited free throw.You can easily prevent this by just knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what kind of foul.
Dead ball fouls are the time you should do the most officiating.These situations do not just happen,and if they do the problem is YOU,not the people around you.
Yes,these situations can just happen,but not without help from the officials.It is your job to run the game.If you cannot run the game,maybe you should not be out out there." End of quote!
The winning responder gets to do girls' games for the rest of the year.Sorry,Rut,the devil made me do it!:

Yes it can be easily prevented, but this is a totally different situation. This is not just not deciding to not give a FT, we were not told at all. As a matter of fact, we told the table we were shooting the FT and why. If they new that the first foul was supposed be bonus, then this would have never happen. A good table should be telling you these things immediately. I do not sit at the table and look up every foul, and most of the time you cannot rely on the score board. We had already had a confusion with them earlier in the game with and 1 and 1 situation.

And JR, this situation that you quoted was completely different situation. We were not talking FT, we were talking about not being able to count players. The table has almost nothing to do with that. If you have 12 players on the court and you cannot catch that, it is your fault for allowing that to happen. This situation that I discribed here was was completely different. It would be like expecting officials to know how many fouls a player had exactly. You might have knowledge, but you are not going to know on your own that you fouled out a player.

Do not come here and try to think you caught someone saying something condradictory and you did not give all the statements or information. And for your information, I took responsibility for the situtation. I did not blame the table personnel at all when I explained the situation to the coaches. So in the end I practice what I preach, do you?

I will add this considering that we already had a problem earlier. I should have just flat out have asked the table if we were close to the bonus. Because it would have made a big difference if the T was the 7th foul. You cannot take the word of the table all the times. And if you do you will still be blamed for the confusion.

Again, if you are too incompetent to count the correct players on the court, you need to give up the whistle. Not because you are stupid or anything like that, but it is something you HAVE TO DO every game several times a game. And if you cannot take responsibility for that, I still feel the same way. The McGriff Board discussion was basically a bunch of people trying to justify making this mistake, and I was saying there was no kind of justification. And I still say that correctable error situations for the most part are officials falling asleep. And most of those have nothing to do with the table. If you do not award merited FT, usually it is officials that give 1 and 1, instead of 2 or not knowing how many to give on an intentional foul on a made basket or other ways that the OFFICIALS are not aware of the rule applications to deal with the situation. But again, who else is responsible for officials counting 5 on a side? Please do not tell me the table is responsible.

If you are going to quote me, quote me "completely disagreeing" about the same situtation. Not disagreeing about a seperate rule or separate situation. Counting players or not having enough players on the court is NOT A CORRECTABLE ERROR SITUATION!!! Maybe your name is fitting.


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 04:03pm
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Lightbulb Of course it was

Quote:
Originally posted by BOBBYMO
Rut. Even though the free throws were shot in the wrong order... you still have a dead ball at the end of the free throws. The lanes should be cleared for all of the attempts and then the ball is awarded back to team A {because of the "T"} at 1/2 court after all the attempts are done.
I never said the lane was not cleared. It had to be cleared, we gave the ball back to A at the division line. That should almost go without saying. A bonus situation would give B and opportunity to get the ball. We cannot give the ball back to A if that happens. After a T in HS, the offended team always gets the ball back. It is not college where the "Point of Interruption" is a factor.

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 06:03pm
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Hey,Rut,I just quoted YOU word for word.You brought this up yourself in the other forum specifically about not awarding merited free throws.Your answer is in context to that,and also applies to the situation above.You're the one that said you can easily prevent this type of correctable error by knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what type.Well,you just found out it ain't that easy to prevent sometimes,didn't you.My point is that sh*t sometimes happens,and it is not the officials' fault.
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 07:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Hey,Rut,I just quoted YOU word for word.You brought this up yourself in the other forum specifically about not awarding merited free throws.Your answer is in context to that,and also applies to the situation above.You're the one that said you can easily prevent this type of correctable error by knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what type.Well,you just found out it ain't that easy to prevent sometimes,didn't you.My point is that sh*t sometimes happens,and it is not the officials' fault.
It does not matter that you quoted me, it is what you are quoting me for.

It is just like quoting Martin Luther King Jr. in his "I have a Dream" speech. You can focus on just the "I have a Dream" and totally miss all the things he said more than 2/3 of the speech.

You quoted an argument completely out of context. And NO $hit does not just happen when counting players. And if it does, who do you think is going to take the blame? If you are officiating a football game and you have 12 players on the field, and you were suppose to call a penalty and you do not. Then the team with 12 players scores a touchdown and wins the game in the final minute of the game and wins, are you going to be able to say "$hit happens?" I sure the hell hope not. And since the original comments had to do with COUNTING PLAYERS AND GIVING A T FOR THAT WITHOUT TAKING THE TIME TO CATCH THAT, $H!T does not just happen. My actions did not give a team the ball and give them two shots because I feel asleep. I think the difference is huge. And if "I" did not give a merited FT because I did not realize that we had to shoot both, then what you are saying would be 100% correct. And most correctable errors are the fault of the official.

Kind of hard to blame the table for 2-10-1a, Failure to award a merited FT, when you the official knew you were in the bonus and you just did not shoot the FT. And I personally take responsibility for that every game. You have to have some kind of "awareness" of that fact, if by nothing else but asking the table if we are in the bonus. Because at some point you need to know who the hell might shoot if you are not sure.

I guess like to take ownership over my games. I do not like to pass the buck or put the responsiblity in the hands of others. And that is why in THAT DISCUSSION ON THE McGRIFF BOARD, I said that counting players is and officials responsibility and and officials responsiblity only. And if you cannot understand that, you need to ask what your assignor says when you allow those kind of things to happen over and over again. And see what coaches will think of you giving Ts when you did not have to. Yes, $hit can happen, but you better make sure it does not keep happening. And the seasoned veterans do not let it happen if at all.

Peace

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 08:15pm
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JRutledge,

You really set yourself up when you posted the following on the other board:

1)failure to award a merited free throw.You can easily prevent this by just knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what kind of foul.

Then you go back on your own words and say that you can't trust the board.

Come on...admit it. Even you fall asleep at the wheel once a year. Try as we might, we'll all end up in a "situation" even with all our experience and ability. Preventative officiating is critical, but when it doesn't always work (as you claimed before you "got yours"), it's time to work your way out. And now it happened to you. You're human. It's OK. One of the beautiful things about reffing is how it humbles us. When you got a little sure of yourself, the game brought you back down with the rest of us. Welcome home.

Peace

Z
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Old Sun Jan 06, 2002, 08:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
JRutledge,

You really set yourself up when you posted the following on the other board:

1)failure to award a merited free throw.You can easily prevent this by just knowing how many fouls you have on the board and what kind of foul.

Then you go back on your own words and say that you can't trust the board.

Come on...admit it. Even you fall asleep at the wheel once a year. Try as we might, we'll all end up in a "situation" even with all our experience and ability. Preventative officiating is critical, but when it doesn't always work (as you claimed before you "got yours"), it's time to work your way out. And now it happened to you. You're human. It's OK. One of the beautiful things about reffing is how it humbles us. When you got a little sure of yourself, the game brought you back down with the rest of us. Welcome home.

Peace

Z
Admit what? You need to go and read the ENTIRE POST!!!!!! You cannot take one comment or one phrase out that entire post and say, "SEE, SEE YOU SAID THAT!!!" I just went back and read it just for my own memory. I clearly stated this example to show that as an official, you need to take ownership of these type of things, because if you do not you will get blamed no matter who actually did what. I will say this, I was not the referee in this situation. If I had been, I would have told them what to do if we have these type of confusions. I do not know if my partner did or not, but I would have told them what was right and wrong if we had book problems and when and how to address them or get our attention to correct them.

And I will also say this, IT WAS COMPLETELY MY FAULT!!! Does that go along with what I said before? Or do I need to quote myself on that? Did you see me say anything differently the fact that this mistake happen. I personally did not ask the table the proper questions and this happen. I never put myself on a higher plane. I SAID THAT IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AND I STILL FEEL THE SAME WAY!!! I am not one of these that says, "it just happens." It should have not happen and I stand by that. And this was not even the situation that was discussed. But as I said before, it did not affect the game at all. It is not like "I" gave a T for something I could have prevented. I already did that, we just did not shoot them in the proper order. BIG, BIG, BIG DIFFERENCE in my book. And if it is not a big difference, you tell me why on everyone's pregame board or you see, "Eye contact before putting the ball into play." It is not because we like to look at each other.

Let us have a little perspective.


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