Would you "T"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Philz

I didnt call a "T" neither did my partner but we looked at each other like maybe we should have done something. I never thought of calling a "T" because he was trying to motivate his team but on the other hand I think he was probably out of control.

Put me in the calling-a-T column.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by lrpalmer3

In my mind, every coach gets one tirade. Someone on our crew then lets him know that we can't allow that to happen again. If he does it again, T. But that's only if we're not coming down the stretch in a close game. In that case, it goes uncalled again, and again, and again. Just being truthful here.

Surely you jest (and yes, I called you Shirley). You mean that if a coach stands there and screams obscenities at you at the top of his lungs, you'd give him only a warning if this is the first time he does it? And then you'd let him do it again and again without a T if the game is close at the end???!!!!

Either I'm reading your post incorrectly or else you are joking - I hope! At first, I thought you were joking when I saw the smiley face, but then you ended your post with a statement that you were being truthful, which (I think) negates the smiley.

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So you whack a player anytime they use a curse word under their breathe or not directed at anyone no matter what the situation or the loudness? What about if a player dislocates their knee (this actually happen in a game last year)? Now I would bet you do not do that every single time it happens.

I agree the coach is setting an example, but it is not my job to put my foot down on all behavior a coach displays. We are only seeing these coaches and players for a very short period of time. The parents and the administration see a lot more of what goes on than I do.

Peace

____________________________________

1. We're not talking about a player cussing under his breath or when he dislocates his knee. We're talking about a coach who is on a tirade who is using inapproriate language loud enough to be heard all over the gymn and in the lobby.

2. Agreed, we don't put our foot down on all behavior a coach displays... but we are supposed to put our foot down on improper behavior. That's part of what we are getting paid to do and to ignore such an obvious tirade makes us look unwilling to address difficult situations and unprofessional.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by refnrev

____________________________________

1. We're not talking about a player cussing under his breath or when he dislocates his knee. We're talking about a coach who is on a tirade who is using inapproriate language loud enough to be heard all over the gymn and in the lobby.

2. Agreed, we don't put our foot down on all behavior a coach displays... but we are supposed to put our foot down on improper behavior. That's part of what we are getting paid to do and to ignore such an obvious tirade makes us look unwilling to address difficult situations and unprofessional.

The rules do not put all these caveats on how the rule should be applied. Even in your defense of your position you are qualifying your position. May only point is to say that even if no one hears it but you, then you have to penalize based on how you take this position.

I am not saying I am right, but if we are really worried about an example we are setting, why does it matter who else hears the words? What if you are standing right next to the huddle let us say after the first horn is blown and you hear the coach use two or three choice words and you are the only person outside of the huddle that hears it? I would think most (not necessarily you) would pass and at the most say something to the coach.

Ultimately we put all kinds of caveats on when and how we apply rules like this. Really that is the point that I want to make.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...but it is not my job to put my foot down on all behavior a coach displays....

You are correct. Your job is only to put your foot down on unacceptable behavior a coach displays. Surely you're not suggesting you'd give a coach a pass on unacceptable behavior just because you're only going to be there for 90 minutes?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You are correct. Your job is only to put your foot down on unacceptable behavior a coach displays. Surely you're not suggesting you'd give a coach a pass on unacceptable behavior just because you're only going to be there for 90 minutes?

First of all you are taking those comments out of context. All unacceptable behavior by a coach is not going to be in your view. Coaches have contact with players in the locker room, on the bus, even in the huddle where you will not know what is going on. Those are the things schools need to deal with. I live in a community that is so conservative if a coach even used a word that was not a curse word, the kids would tell on them.

I just thing this is like the political question that everyone agrees with like, "Do you support funding for children's education?" Then when you get behind closed doors or you start talking about the details, then the opinions change drastically. If the rule is the rule, then it should not matter how loud the comments are. But my point is that we do put all those qualifiers on this and many issues. There were even people that said, "But if it is heard all over the gym....."

Peace

[lrpalmer3]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Surely you jest (and yes, I called you Shirley). You mean that if a coach stands there and screams obscenities at you at the top of his lungs, you'd give him only a warning if this is the first time he does it? And then you'd let him do it again and again without a T if the game is close at the end???!!!!

Either I'm reading your post incorrectly or else you are joking - I hope! At first, I thought you were joking when I saw the smiley face, but then you ended your post with a statement that you were being truthful, which (I think) negates the smiley.

Tirade to his own team. I thought that's what we've been talking about, but I should have been more clear.

[deecee]

JRut you just justified one of the silliest positions ever. What you said is tantamount to classifying a murderer, who commits a crime with no witnesses, as one only if he gets caught. However would the authorities say, "well he was going to get away with it anyway so I guess there is no need to punish him?"

You cannot punish what you cannot hear or see -- you are just justifying the coaches behavior as acceptable because under normal circumstances no one else is around to witness it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

JRut you just justified one of the silliest positions ever. What you said is tantamount to classifying a murderer, who commits a crime with no witnesses, as one only if he gets caught. However would the authorities say, "well he was going to get away with it anyway so I guess there is no need to punish him?"

You cannot punish what you cannot hear or see -- you are just justifying the coaches behavior as acceptable because under normal circumstances no one else is around to witness it.

You need to go back are read what I said. This is not about murder or any other crime. Those are things that have a greater society issue. But it is hard to arrest someone without any evidence.

I said you should punish with the same zeal if you want to be consistent whether everyone hears it or if no one but you hears it if your position is you are trying to set and example and punish unacceptable behavior. And it is not our job to be the moral policy for all behavior of the coach. If a coach is using acceptable language, someone will likely notice and tell on him or her.

The bottom line, it should not matter if anyone else but you the official hears it, you should have the balls to make the call and stand by the rulebook if this is so important. Otherwise, just say you are selective as anyone else on how you apply this rule and others with is more realistic to begin with.

Peace

[Texas Aggie]

I understand what Rut is saying and I agree with some of it (no need to reference point by point for either agreement or refutation), but I think you can't compare a player going down to injury and using several expletives to a coach who's berating his team in a loud enough voice for me (much less anyone else) to hear. The former isn't unsportsmanlike and the latter is, and the SPIRIT AND INTENT of the rule in this situation is to penalize unsporting behavior. When a player is injured, just about all bets are off. We aren't going to penalize a coach or trainer who bolts off the bench at the first sign of a SERIOUS injury (been there a few times too many) even before beckoned, but we would in virtually every other case.

Getting back to the situation at hand: cussing in the huddle. I go over there and remind the coach what we are here for (i.e. "coach, remember, we are here to be good sports and set examples") and/or to ask him to lower his voice. At that point and time, its an easy T if the request(s) are not complied with.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Getting back to the situation at hand: cussing in the huddle. I go over there and remind the coach what we are here for (i.e. "coach, remember, we are here to be good sports and set examples") and/or to ask him to lower his voice. At that point and time, its an easy T if the request(s) are not complied with.

There is your answer gentlemen. Very well stated I might add. Give the coach a change to correct it himself. He may not know that he is that out of line. Remember, if the gym is crowded with a lot of fans, you can't hear him anyway. This past weekend, I saw a coach (female) hit a player after a timeout. It was not aggressive or over the top, but none the less borders on being inappropriate. Our jobs of being officials must take into account everyone well being, including the coaches. The coaches can be your friends if you give them the chance. If you remove that chance, they can be your worse enemy.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

The coaches can be your friends if you give them the chance.

Typical rec league thinking. Ignore.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

The coaches can be your friends if you give them the chance. If you remove that chance, they can be your worse enemy.

There's a difference between working a game to "make friends" and working a game to "gain respect". Given the choice, I'll take the latter every time.

BTW - if I saw a coach hit a player, in anything other than a teasing, playful way (like a "mock" tap just to be funny), that coach is gone, a report will be filed and I would be available to testify in court in a child abuse case.

Off topic - my wife and I raised three wonderful kids who are now grown and have families of their own. Not once in their entire lifetimes did I ever raise a hand to them and hit/spank them. I told them they can pay me back by treating their kids the same way. So far, with all seven grandkids, it's working great.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

There's a difference between working a game to "make friends" and working a game to "gain respect". Given the choice, I'll take the latter every time.

BTW - if I saw a coach hit a player, in anything other than a teasing, playful way (like a "mock" tap just to be funny), that coach is gone, a report will be filed and I would be available to testify in court in a child abuse case.

Off topic - my wife and I raised three wonderful kids who are now grown and have families of their own. Not once in their entire lifetimes did I ever raise a hand to them and hit/spank them. I told them they can pay me back by treating their kids the same way. So far, with all seven grandkids, it's working great.

Let's not go down the wrong path here. Instead of saying friends, I should have said ally. Coaches can be a great ally to the successful job you're trying to do on the court.

Unfortunately, I have seen the worse in this game. I have seen coaches grab kids and kids crying, and coaches blaming kids for losing games. It is a mess out here people and it's happening at such a young age. A sad state of affairs. I am on the border of snapping myself. If a see one more kid be abused just to play a game of bb, you might be reading about me on the news. The lady that slapped the kid was not in any way bad, as I indicated. However, it was a packed gym and I'm sure parents saw it. Parents that want Johnnie to be the next Oden or Durant are willing to accept certain unpleasant reality's.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Let's not go down the wrong path here. Instead of saying friends, I should have said ally. Coaches can be a great ally to the successful job you're trying to do on the court.

Rec league thinking. Ignore.

You never make any call in any game while worrying about whatinthehell a coach might think of that call. If you want a friend or an ally, go see Dr. Phil. Coaches aren't neutral; they care who wins and they want all the close calls to go their way. There's nothing the matter with either, unless you delude yourself into thinking that you can be a friend or an ally of one of the coaches while also officiating a fair, balanced and even game.

Officials who worry about what coaches think will remain in their rec leagues forever. That's where they belong too.