How late is too late??

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You answered your own question.

Ok, so should he have blown his whistle at that time and called the foul?

And, should the resulting layup count, or should he wipe that off?

I think the question isn't whether or not it was a foul, but once he realizes it should've been called a foul, how long can you wait before calling it?

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, so should he have blown his whistle at that time and called the foul?

And, should the resulting layup count, or should he wipe that off?

I think the question isn't whether or not it was a foul, but once he realizes it should've been called a foul, how long can you wait before calling it?

Before the player that stole the ball gets more than two dribbles away.

I dunno...it's going to look ugly either way. He was late on a foul call...does he want to compound the problem by letting the opposing team benefit TWICE because of the original non-call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, so should he have blown his whistle at that time and called the foul?

And, should the resulting layup count, or should he wipe that off?

I think the question isn't whether or not it was a foul, but once he realizes it should've been called a foul, how long can you wait before calling it?

I didn't see the play; he did. If, after thinking about it, he thinks that he should have called a foul, then he should have called it. From his original description, it sureasheck sounds like a foul should have been called. If the dribbler gets bumped off his path and also turned around at the same time, that is not incidental contact.

If the subsequent steal was fairly close to the original contact, you can come in with a late whistle and explain it away fairly easily. If the player hasn't recovered his balance yet from the bump, as he said in the op, then it certainly ain't too late. Call it as soon as the ball is stolen.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I didn't see the play; he did. If, after thinking about it, he thinks that he should have called a foul, then he should have called it. From his original description, it sureasheck sounds like a foul should have been called. If the dribbler gets bumped off his path and also turned around at the same time, that is not incidental contact.

If the subsequent steal was fairly close to the original contact, you can come in with a late whistle and explain it away fairly easily. If the player hasn't recovered his balance yet from the bump, as he said in the op, then it certainly ain't too late. Call it as soon as the ball is stolen.

I agree; I was just trying to be a little bit of a smart-a$$.

I know I've had that brain-locked condition where you see the play, and think to yourself, "Someone should call something"; then you realize you're the one that should be calling something. So how much time should elapse before you just say, ok, now it's too late? I agree as soon as the ball is stolen is still ok. I also agree once the ball is stolen and the other team lays it in, that's too late. Does anyone have any "rule of thumb" as to when is it really too late to come in with a foul call? 2 steps? 2 seconds?

[refin1]

speed, rhythm and control. If any of those three are interupted, it's a foul

[howie719]

One thing that has helped me, is to see the PLAY on the floor as a moving picture rather than a series of still shots. Late whistles are a great tool, especially when getting/giving help from/to another official on the floor. Allowing the play to develop and letting players play through contact is part of the game. The higher the level you do the more excepted this is among players, coaches, and officials.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Does anyone have any "rule of thumb" as to when is it really too late to come in with a foul call? 2 steps? 2 seconds?

Like pornography or pictures of Chuck, I think you know it when you see it.

Being "too late" is, IMO, dependent on the game so far - what level is the play, how fast are the players, etc.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Like pornography or pictures of Chuck

I hope to never see these these two things in the same sentence again.

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I think you know it when you see it.

I think you're probably right, but I just wondered if anyone else had any helpful tidbits. After all, we have correctable error situations that, by rule, might be corrected several minutes later, so there is obviously some precedence in coming in late to get something right. Perhaps a change of possession, score, or some other violation would make it too late, wouldn't you think?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

After all, we have correctable error situations that, by rule, might be corrected several minutes later, so there is obviously some precedence in coming in late to get something right. Perhaps a change of possession, score, or some other violation would make it too late, wouldn't you think?

It's hard to find a consensus on the question of how late is too late, I think, because it's a feel thing. There is a constancy of action and a pervasive immediacy to the game of basketball. It's all about what's happening right now. What went before is forgotten nearly as soon as it happens. That makes it feel wrong to come with a late whistle (as opposed to a patient whistle).

We've had many a discussion about the correctable error thing and though we usually come to an understanding about the correct application of the rule, I can't think of any rule that provokes such negative emotion. It so often just feels wrong to apply the proper correctable "fix." And I think a lot of that has to do with violating that sense of immediacy.

I would agree that "a change of possession, score, or some other violation" make good delimiters to help determine when a call is too late. But I think that there are much more frequent, and more subtle, delimiters as well. For instance, a simple pass in a way begins a whole new play. The locus of activity has shifted and a late whistle on the play preceeding the pass injects a jarring dissonance as everybody has to mentally rewind back to what happened. Other examples come to mind as well.

It's just difficult to make a blanket statement about how late is too late when you really have to be there to feel for yourself when it's too late.

[Texas Aggie]

I had a foul call last year, I think, where the contact knocked the dribbler off balance, and then finally, he fell to the ground -- probably 2 seconds after the contact. Had he quickly regained his balance, I would have had nothing.

The problem that this gets into is if the bench is up screaming for a foul right after the contact and you wait a second or two, it looks like you are being talked into the call. I care more about correctness than appearances, but keep in mind, you need to be prepared to explain this to the coaches.

I think in a case like your's just eat it and tell the coach, "coach, I missed it, OK, let's play ball" if he asks or complains. Honestly, maybe its because I'm getting older or am more and more familiar to coaches, but I said something like that 3 times this year and never heard another word about it.

Just don't get in the habit of missing it!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

It's hard to find a consensus on the question of how late is too late, I think, because it's a feel thing. There is a constancy of action and a pervasive immediacy to the game of basketball. It's all about what's happening right now. What went before is forgotten nearly as soon as it happens. That makes it feel wrong to come with a late whistle (as opposed to a patient whistle).

We've had many a discussion about the correctable error thing and though we usually come to an understanding about the correct application of the rule, I can't think of any rule that provokes such negative emotion. It so often just feels wrong to apply the proper correctable "fix." And I think a lot of that has to do with violating that sense of immediacy.

I would agree that "a change of possession, score, or some other violation" make good delimiters to help determine when a call is too late. But I think that there are much more frequent, and more subtle, delimiters as well. For instance, a simple pass in a way begins a whole new play. The locus of activity has shifted and a late whistle on the play preceeding the pass injects a jarring dissonance as everybody has to mentally rewind back to what happened. Other examples come to mind as well.

It's just difficult to make a blanket statement about how late is too late when you really have to be there to feel for yourself when it's too late.

Ok, I get it. I'll put you down for two steps.

Hmm...you know what, we haven't had a poll in quite a while...