Q2: Sorry I'm a day late.

Here is Tuesday's (Dec 7) question:

NFHS rules (don't know NCAA):

4th and 6 at B's 18. Team A attempts FG. Team B partially blocks kick at LOS. Team A recovers at B's 8. Kick was untouched by B (other than partial block). Who has possession and where is the ball spotted?

Serg

[Warrenkicker]

The touching by B is ignored by rule, 6-2-6. It is B's ball at the 8, 6-2-5.

[Edited by Warrenkicker on Dec 8th, 2004 at 12:20 PM]

[Opie]

I'll take a shot.
Touching by B in ENZ is ignored. 6-2-6
First and 10 for B at own 8. Clock starts on snap.

Something about that seems wrong to me, but I can't find any rule that would award the ball to B at the 20, which feels right. Thoughts?

[JasonTX]

Under NCAA the ball will be spotted at the 20 since the previous spot was inside the 20. If the previous spot would have been outside the 20 then that would be where the ball is next spotted.

[IAUMP]

B's ball 1 &10 at B's 8 yard line. A missed field goal is treated like a punt. Since B did not touch the kick, the play is downed by A's possession at the 8.

[MJT]

Originally posted by VaASAump
Here is Tuesday's (Dec 7) question:

NFHS rules (don't know NCAA):

4th and 6 at B's 18. Team A attempts FG. Team B partially blocks kick at LOS. Team A recovers at B's 8. Kick was untouched by B (other than partial block). Who has possession and where is the ball spotted?

Serg

Thanks for getting your question in! Without reading the other posts, here is my take

NF - A FG attempt is the same as any scrimmage kick. The touching by B in the ENZ is ignored and since the ball was recovered by A beyond the NZ, it will be B's ball 1-10 from the 8 yard line. If the ball got to the EZ, we would have a TB. If B muffs it beyond the NZ it will be a 1st down for whoever recovers (A or B). Team A cannot advance a muff. Remember to bean bag 1st touching by A and ignore a forced touching by B.


NCAA - The touching by B in the ENZ is again ignored. An unsuccessful FG attempt inside the 20 yard line is returned to the 20, and can be put into play anywhere between the hash marks. If it is missed outside the 20, it comes back to the PS for B's 1-10. If B muffs it beyond the NZ it will be a 1st down for whoever recovers (A or B). Team A cannot advance a muff. Remember to bean bag 1st touching by A and ignore a forced touching by B.

[mcrowder]

Agreed - as stated, in NCAA it's B's ball 1st and 10 on the 20.

[MJT]

Originally posted by IAUMP
B's ball 1 &10 at B's 8 yard line. A missed field goal is treated like a punt. Since B did not touch the kick, the play is downed by A's possession at the 8.

IAUMP where are you from? I am in NW IA, Sioux County.

[ljudge]

Interesting points about 6.2.6 being brought up. Now for a spin on this. What if this were a punt (ie: a HIGH kick) and R attempted to catch the ball 1 yard beyond the NZ (note: he's still in the ENZ). Assuming he muffs the ball and K recovers who's ball is it?

Now before you're quick to answer here's a couple of rules to look at. There's 6.2.6 which mentions a LOW scrimmage kick. But now consider rule 5.1.3f which uses the word "beyond" in considering who gets the ball.

Hope you're all with me here. A LOW kick gets ignored and you only award to R if it's a muff BEYOND the ENZ. But what about INSIDE the ENZ. Who would you award the ball to?

[ljudge]

Left out one criticial point. After K recovers he falls down and the play ends behind the NZ.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ljudge
Interesting points about 6.2.6 being brought up. Now for a spin on this. What if this were a punt (ie: a HIGH kick) and R attempted to catch the ball 1 yard beyond the NZ (note: he's still in the ENZ). Assuming he muffs the ball and K recovers who's ball is it?

Now before you're quick to answer here's a couple of rules to look at. There's 6.2.6 which mentions a LOW scrimmage kick. But now consider rule 5.1.3f which uses the word "beyond" in considering who gets the ball.

Hope you're all with me here. A LOW kick gets ignored and you only award to R if it's a muff BEYOND the ENZ. But what about INSIDE the ENZ. Who would you award the ball to?

Originally posted by ljudge
Left out one criticial point. After K recovers he falls down and the play ends behind the NZ.

There are a few factors here. If R muffs the ball beyond the ENZ it would be 1-10 for whichever team recovers it no matter where the recovery occurs. In your example, K could recover and have 1-10 since they recovered it "behind" the NZ, but since R muffed the ball in the "ENZ", K would not get the ball if they recovered it "beyond" the NZ. That would be one tough call!

[ljudge]

Yeah, but look at 5.1.3f closely. If K recovers behind the NZ and R had touched in the ENZ then, yes, it belongs to K but it's not in the rule where it says K gets a new series of downs. 5.1.4 clearly supports what you're saying (meaning K's ball) BUT it has no bearing on a new series. So, in this case it's K's ball, but if it's 4th down then the ball goes over to R since he didn't muff beyond the ENZ.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ljudge
Yeah, but look at 5.1.3f closely. If K recovers behind the NZ and R had touched in the ENZ then, yes, it belongs to K but it's not in the rule where it says K gets a new series of downs. 5.1.4 clearly supports what you're saying (meaning K's ball) BUT it has no bearing on a new series. So, in this case it's K's ball, but if it's 4th down then the ball goes over to R since he didn't muff beyond the ENZ.

5-1-3 says "award a new series to:" This is why K gets a new series. It is at the top, before the A-G stuff.

[ljudge]

We're in agreement, but look at f closer. It says a new series is awarded to team in poss if R is 1st to touch a kick while it is beyond the ENZ unless.... What if the muff is within the ENZ. The way it's written you would give the ball over to R....but I don't think that's what they meant. It would be a ballsy call to give the ball to R if R muffed beyond the NZ but within the ENZ and K recovered.

I would give the ball to K 1st and 10 but the way it's written it leaves it open to question.

Am I still missing something? I hope I'm not being stubborn here.

[MJT]

Originally posted by ljudge
We're in agreement, but look at f closer. It says a new series is awarded to team in poss if R is 1st to touch a kick while it is beyond the ENZ unless.... What if the muff is within the ENZ. The way it's written you would give the ball over to R....but I don't think that's what they meant. It would be a ballsy call to give the ball to R if R muffed beyond the NZ but within the ENZ and K recovered.

I would give the ball to K 1st and 10 but the way it's written it leaves it open to question.

Am I still missing something? I hope I'm not being stubborn here.

I think the problem is I stated some facts, but didn't answer your specific question. You are correct, since the muff occured in the ENZ, and not "beyond" the ENZ, K will not retain the ball unless they reach the LTG.