gps-6-rebounding

crew · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 03:51pm

1. you are slot table side. a1 brings the ball into the front court, passes around the perimeter and a2 from opposite table table shoots a 15 ft jumper. as you are observing back side rebounding a3 dislodges b1 under the basket and:
a) the ball rebounds towards b1/a3
b) the ball rebounds towards a2 and away from b1/a3
c) the basket is good.
what would you guys call on this play?

RecRef · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 03:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by crew
1. you are slot table side. a1 brings the ball into the front court, passes around the perimeter and a2 from opposite table table shoots a 15 ft jumper. as you are observing back side rebounding a3 dislodges b1 under the basket and:
a) the ball rebounds towards b1/a3
b) the ball rebounds towards a2 and away from b1/a3
c) the basket is good.
what would you guys call on this play?

How much? 1 inch, 1 foot, across the court?

crew · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 04:01pm

b1 is positioned 5ft from the basket an a3 moves him forward 3-4 ft.

Dennis Flannery · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 04:06pm

In A I have a foul
In B and C I have a no call.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 04:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Flannery
In A I have a foul
In B and C I have a no call.

Please show me in the NFHS/NCAA Rules BookS where you ignore the foul committed in Plays B and C. There is no advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer; except when Coach B commits a technical foul while A1 is on a one-nothing fast bread (see the NFHS Casebook). To have a "no call" (oh how I dislike that phrase) in Plays B and C is a classic example of "seeing the whole play" (I also dislike this phrase.) is just not allowed by the rules.

The contact by A3 against B1 is a foul and to wait to see what the shot does is not allowed by the rules. Please read my postings on incidental contact (NFHS R4-S27 and NCAA R4-S37), and you will see that this type of intetpretation cannot be defended.

Dennis Flannery · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 06:53pm

In High School, I wouldn't ignore this contact, but at the next level they teach you to no call this.

bob jenkins · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 07:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by crew
1. you are slot table side. a1 brings the ball into the front court, passes around the perimeter and a2 from opposite table table shoots a 15 ft jumper. as you are observing back side rebounding a3 dislodges b1 under the basket and:
a) the ball rebounds towards b1/a3
b) the ball rebounds towards a2 and away from b1/a3
c) the basket is good.
what would you guys call on this play?

a) Foul if the movement prevents b1 from getting the rebound (if s/he gets it anyway, no call)

b and c) No call.

10-27-3 -- I don't view the "push" as preventing B1 from "participating in normal defensive movements" if the ball isn't there to be rebounded. Now, I won't give any benefit of the doubt to A3 -- that is, if the rebound was farther out than B1 was initially, or anyway close to him / her, I probably have a foul. And, your description of moving B1 3-4 feet is pretty severe.

eroe39 · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 07:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Flannery
In A I have a foul
In B and C I have a no call.

Please show me in the NFHS/NCAA Rules BookS where you ignore the foul committed in Plays B and C. There is no advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer; except when Coach B commits a technical foul while A1 is on a one-nothing fast bread (see the NFHS Casebook). To have a "no call" (oh how I dislike that phrase) in Plays B and C is a classic example of "seeing the whole play" (I also dislike this phrase.) is just not allowed by the rules.

Mark, advantage/disadvantage is crucial to basketball officiating. You can't use the rule book for everything. The rule book should not be your basis as when to call fouls. Foul calling is an artform that involves philosophy, judgement, experience, watching tapes, going to camps, and listening to teachers of the game. It is not something that is black and white. I would have no calls in b and c unless the contact is severe or violent.

mick · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 31, 2001, 07:56pm

Agreeing with:
Dennis
Bob J.
eroe

If the game has been too physical and I want to rein it in, I'll do what Mark T. suggests... follow the rule and to heck with the flow.

mick

RecRef · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2002, 03:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by crew
b1 is positioned 5ft from the basket an a3 moves him forward 3-4 ft.

Foul for situation 1, maybe even an intentional foul. Some here may disagree on the intentional but I take a dim view of a play where a player is deliberately moved to gain advantage. Three feet of movement sounds deliberate to me.

Situation 2 ??? Tend to think I would call a common foul here. Have to see the play.

No call.

JRutledge · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 01, 2002, 03:27pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

Please show me in the NFHS/NCAA Rules BookS where you ignore the foul committed in Plays B and C. There is no advantage clause in basketball like there is in soccer; except when Coach B commits a technical foul while A1 is on a one-nothing fast bread (see the NFHS Casebook). To have a "no call" (oh how I dislike that phrase) in Plays B and C is a classic example of "seeing the whole play" (I also dislike this phrase.) is just not allowed by the rules.

The contact by A3 against B1 is a foul and to wait to see what the shot does is not allowed by the rules. Please read my postings on incidental contact (NFHS R4-S27 and NCAA R4-S37), and you will see that this type of intetpretation cannot be defended.

You have every right to your opinion. But the rules does use a advantage/disadvantage provision in it. It is just not worded that way. You need to look in the Incidental Contact rule 4-27 and look at what the rule says about contact and affecting "normal offensive and defensive movement." And if I am not mistaken (not looking at the book right now) I do see something about not matter how "severe" the contact might be. If that is not advantage/disadvantage, I really do not know what the heck is.

Peace

crew · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 02, 2002, 12:07am

my philosophy on these types of rebounds are in
a) i would call a foul.
b & c) i would not call a foul-i would also remember the play and player. by remebering the play i can be more alert for the action the next time it happens and be ready to call the foul if the rebound was to come to an area where b1 has a chance to make a play on the ball.

the reason i would not call a foul is because no advantage has been gained. though a3 pushes b1 3ft or so b1 had no chance of rebounding. the term used on these plays is "game interuptor". my opinion on calling this a foul is that it interupts the flow of the game and is not a neccessary call to make.

now if a3 was a player that is disrupting the game by playing to rough or has been causing problems(taunting, or questioning every call, or just being plain out ***hole) i may call this a foul to convey the message that this game is getting to rough and the players need to play with less aggression and more control(basically reel the game in control). also if the push is excessive or a personal guesture to piss off a player a call needs to be made.

i think plays like these(b &c) are good tools for game management. if teams are playing in a good manner with good sportsmanship passing on these plays could be a good idea. you can always come in with a whistle to gain control when the play is ugly or rough to calm the game down.

another twist to this play is the same play but reverse a3 and b1.
if b1 were to push a3 in the situation B & C i would use the same philosophy because no advantage has been gained. and in situation C i would not want to score the basket and then give team A the ball back or put them on the line for freethrows.

BBarnaky · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 02, 2002, 12:03pm

I have to agree with ERoe39's assessment of these plays. Unless the fouls are so severe or flagrant in nature, I would pass and observe on both situations. Furthermore, I must echo the comments that play calling is a "learn as you go" experience. The more basketball "IQ" a person has, going to camps, breaking down tape OBJECTIVELY, learning from veterans, and constant play analysis with officiating friends and other officials help one to achieve the art of "play calling." The rulebook is a useful tool as well and one must apply those rules without taking them to one extreme or the other as a person sees it.

devdog69 · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 02, 2002, 12:43pm

Great, I have really learned a lot from you guys. I realize I no longer have to watch all of my area and look off-ball. Any off ball contact really has no bearing on the play and there would be no advantage gained by the contact. I can now just take a nap when the ball is not in my area. Off-ball fouls are "game interrupters" and take away from the flow of the game.

rockyroad · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 02, 2002, 01:22pm

Oooo - sarcasm so early in the New Year!! My, my, my...let's try to be rational here and understand that GOOD off-ball coverage means not only seeing the push in the original post, but also seeing the outcome of the push and seeing the entire play...if the push is severe enough - certainly call a foul in situation 2 and 3 - if you don't, there will be retaliation...however, not all contact needs to be called a foul as several others have tried to point out...the best officials at off-ball coverage know the difference between what needs to be called and what doesn't...