|
Wed Jan 02, 2002, 01:28pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
As a coach, I like the no-call when nobody is hurt or disadvantaged by the play, provided the game is being played under control. You could call a foul every time down the court, you could ignore everything. The true skill is recognizing what to call and when to call it.
We shot 39 free throws in one AAU Regional game last year and it was just an awful game, due mainly to the refs. Never seen so many whistles or so many fouls both ways. It was hard to have a possession without a whistle, and it wasn't a particularly physical game. The refs hit us hard in the first half and we had my starting 3 and her two back-ups on the bench almost the entire first half (and none of these players traditionally gets into foul trouble nor should they have been that game). No flow to the game whatsoever, and most of the calls should have been no-call (incidental contact). I have also had games where players can't get a shot off without getting hammered and the refs se it all as incidental. Can't really stand either sitch, but I particularly hate the excess fouls. It takes the game awayfrom the players. 
|
|
Wed Jan 02, 2002, 08:09pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Well, believe it or not, I am usually open to anyone's idea or opinion. However, I think I need to be realistic of my and others' situations. In my area and level, KS, JV & Varsity, if you let someone shove another player 3-4 feet and don't call a foul because the rebound went the other direction or the ball went in, you will be eaten alive. Not picking on your philosophy, just will not work for my area at this time.
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 01:59am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 11:34am
|
|||
|
|||
|
gps-6-rebounding
I really like the Hawks Coach 1st paragraph which paraphrases how a good official should handle the game.
Nice comments Coach!!!He stated, "As a coach, I like the no-call when nobody is hurt or disadvantaged by the play, provided the game is being played under control. You could call a foul every time down the court, you could ignore everything. The true skill is recognizing what to call and when to call it." Nice job. I agree totally. Timing of the whistle and discipline on when to use it, is a tough trait to master!!
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 12:56pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
But you can't call every bump under the boards or we will be playing past midnight in a JV game, with the varsity still to follow!
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 01:20pm
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
It's not the distance that would catch my eye as much as the force would. If a guy gets whiplash from being pushed and jarred from behind, it's an easy call for all of us, no matter how far he got displaced. If the guy just kinds rides the push in his back and sorta goes with the flow, then 6'-8' may not be called. Had ta be there, yo? mick
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 02:29pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Crew, Bbarnaky, HawksCoach, et al.
I probably agree with you more than I am admitting to myself. Yes, you would have to see the contact to judge whether it needed to be called. I remember a couple of weeks ago while waiting for our games my partner and I watched half of the JV game. They called 62 fouls, 22 in the 4th quarter alone and it was a 30 point game by halftime. I kept seeing fouls called that had absolutely no bearing on the play, er advantage, sometimes the dribbler would be already by the defender ready to streak for a layup, and tweet a reach foul on the defender. I don't think the kid even felt it a couple of times. We tried to hint around to them, but one of them is not to hip on taking advice from me as I was struggling to get JV games last year being basically new in town and he was doing some varsity, now we're flip-flopped and he doesn't like it. Heard him complaining while I was showering to the other varsity ref that he had more varsity games last year. No wonder. If you guys have any advice on things to do in the off-season to help a guy go to the next level, specifically any midwest camps you prefer, please e-mail me. Thanks.
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 02:40pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Well, it seems like your are on your way to a new level as indicated by keeping your mind open to some of the ideas on these forums. mick
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 02:54pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Basketball is a contact sport. Players do a lot of illegal(by rules) contact. I have to agree with Crew and rockyroad. I think we can have happy medium when it comes to making calls. the rule book is a guideline.
__________________
foulbuster
|
|
Thu Jan 03, 2002, 05:51pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
i totally agree. if the player in front is getting "whiplash" even on a 3-4ft push i would consider this severe or violent.
__________________
tony
|
|
Fri Jan 04, 2002, 11:31pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hawks Coach said: As a coach, I like the no-call when nobody is hurt or disadvantaged by the play, provided the game is being played under control. You could call a foul every time down the court, you could ignore everything. The true skill is recognizing what to call and when to call it.
We shot 39 free throws in one AAU Regional game last year and it was just an awful game, due mainly to the refs. Never seen so many whistles or so many fouls both ways. It was hard to have a possession without a whistle, and it wasn't a particularly physical game. The refs hit us hard in the first half and we had my starting 3 and her two back-ups on the bench almost the entire first half (and none of these players traditionally gets into foul trouble nor should they have been that game). No flow to the game whatsoever, and most of the calls should have been no-call (incidental contact). I have also had games where players can't get a shot off without getting hammered and the refs se it all as incidental. Can't really stand either sitch, but I particularly hate the excess fouls. It takes the game awayfrom the players. Bart Tyson said: Basketball is a contact sport. Players do a lot of illegal(by rules) contact. I have to agree with Crew and rockyroad. I think we can have happy medium when it comes to making calls. the rule book is a guideline. Let me address Bart's commet first: Basketball is a NON-contact sport. I did not say that all contact is illegal. I just said that basketball is a NON-contact sport. What does that mean? It means that there will be incidental contact from time-to-time and that contact is legal. It also means that contact from an unfavorable position in relationship with an opponent or contact that puts an opponent at a disadvantage not intended by the rules is illegal and therefore an infraction of the rules. Now let me address Hawks Coach's comments: The problem that I see in your game is not one of game officials "not" letting the players play the game, but one where the players did not want to play the game within the rules of the game. When this happens, two things can happen. The team's coach can tell his players to play the game according to the rules or the team's coach can complain about the officials "not" letting his players play the game.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn. Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials Ohio High School Athletic Association Toledo, Ohio
|
|
Sat Jan 05, 2002, 12:15am
|
|||
|
|||
|
That leads to my favorite coaches' comment. On something that looks like a close block/charge/no-call
 , the lead is able to see the defender initiate the illegal contact. What does coach knucklehead respond? "Keep doing that, B2! It looked good from here!"
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
|
|
Sat Jan 05, 2002, 12:29am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The problems here are two. First, you did not read my statement closely enough. THIS WAS NOT A PHYSICAL GAME. Read this statement however you like. I have coached over 200 games in the past two years, around 150 with this team alone. This is AAU Regionals, where physical play is common (and I do not mean that physicial play = illegal play - please watch any HS or college game and find one possession without some sort of contact beween at least two players). In a game that was less physical than most we had played in the months preparing for Regionals, it was called tighter than I have seen in all my years coaching (I am not exaggerating) - so tight that neither team could play their game. Problem number two, you did not see this game but talk as if you did. You assume (I seem to remember you have an opinion about the use of this awful human habit!) that our players were outside the rules. You also seem to hint that I am complaining mainly about fouls called on my team - I'm not - we spent the entire second half at the line and fouled out half their starters in a non physical game - that was a travesty of officiating. Neither team was playing physically or anything approaching what I have ever seen stretched to be considered illegal - and yet the whistle blew on nearly every one of our offensive possessions in the 4th quarter. We couldn't run our offense because we were too busy shooting free throws! When's the last time a coach b!tched to you that his team shot too many free throws - think about it Mark! And then please re-think what you said. Been coaching a long time, have a pretty good feel for what is and is not in the rules, and even how to get my players to adjust when the officials call it tight. I ALWAYS ADJUST to the the calls as made (and have made this clear in previous posts if you read this board as often as I think you do) But my players and I can adjust only where it is realistically possible to do so. If you call a travel every time my player makes a legal pivot or palming on every legal crossover, we are going to have a hard time adjusting to what you are calling. We will find it impossible to play within the rules because the ref is not allowing us to do so. The same is true if you blow the whistle every time two bodies make contact, or appear to make contact, no matter how slight and regardless of the impact on a play. I am not talking about adjusting to whether or not handchecks or illegal screens are being called tightly - we do that all the time. You weren't there, I was. I rarely ever complain about officials, never blame a loss on them, didn't say a word to these officials during this game, tried to help my players adjust, etc. I certainly wouldn't blame our loss on them (our awful FT % and several botched put-backs in that game killed us - not the refs fault). And I know we all have bad days, coaches, players, refs, parents, coworkers - everyone. But this was an ugly game and it would take all the fun out of basketball if every game I coached was reffed like this one. And luckily they are not.
|
|
Sat Jan 05, 2002, 12:50am
|
|||
|
|||
NON- contact sport
Mark - Where do you get this concept? The rule book differentiates between contact that is incidental and contact that is illegal. It even allows that incidental contact may be severe in nature. In other words, contact is accepted as part of the game - how can this game then be considered non contact??? If this was a non-contact sport, no contact (no matter how slight) would be incidental. If your pinky touches me, we have to stop play because that is contact.
However, in the interest of full disclosure, I must also say that I struggle with the blanket statement that the rule book provides guidelines. It does not - it gives rules. The problem with fouls is that the rules are not as clear as something like an OOB violation (i.e., you step on the line - you violated - pretty obvious). The incidental contact provisions allow (in fact require) referees to exercise judgement. Many (most?) other rules in the book are not like this at all. Contact is expected on every possession of any good game, and occurs on every half-court possession of any good game. The ref must determine when that contact is such that it becomes a foul. That determination cannot be made from the rule book, because the dividing line is not clear by rule. It is determined by experience, by observing other refs call games, seeing what seems to make a game flow well, and learning from all of this what is incidental and what is a foul. And while no two refs may see it exactly alike, there is a range that refs should remain within. If you are way out there either way, not too many people are going to be happy with the games you call. And those games are liable to be uglier than the average game for that level of play.
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
