Carrying a weak partner

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

BS...There is no reason to be aware of foul counts, none.

Coaches yapping about it, you address the yapping, not the foul count causing the yapping.

As for game management, I'll nip that in the bud too.

Coach A is yapping about foul counts...suddenly JRut "finds" a couple of fouls on team B, since he's now aware of a foul disperity...coach B sees this and you know what happens?

Now you have two coaches yapping...your game management just got harder.

It is clear that you want to twist what I said. I never said anything about "finding" a foul. I also did not say that the coach influences the decisions I make. Here we do three person almost exclusively and there are times you are right in front of a coach. They tend to ask questions or make statements with you standing in front of them. Sometimes I say nothing but just give a look.

You always want to turn something I say into a nefarious or sinister reasoning. It is not like Jeff or I are talking about this in a bubble. The camp we both attended last year these things were openly talked about and every person talking about them were much higher level officials than both of us at this current time.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Because it is not important to you does not make it not important for other officials. BTW, it is very important to keep your behind out of having a correctable error (which has happen to me based on what the foul board says).

Also if a coach is yelling 3 seconds every time up the court it will be addressed. Then again most coaches at the level I work get the hint and it is almost never addressed.

Rocky, you and I have already established we do not see eye to eye on things. Why would this be any different?

Peace

Let's see...we are talking about being aware of a disparity in foul counts and you spin it to being aware of the bonus...typical.

You were the one who said, you will be aware and won't be passing on something you could call against the team on the plus side of 8-1...let's not back track now.

Just admit it, you want to get a coach off your back by making a cosmetic change in the foul count, instead of calling what's there and handling the howler monkey.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is clear that you want to twist what I said. I never said anything about "finding" a foul. I also did not say that the coach influences the decisions I make. Here we do three person almost exclusively and there are times you are right in front of a coach. They tend to ask questions or make statements with you standing in front of them. Sometimes I say nothing but just give a look.

You always want to turn something I say into a nefarious or sinister reasoning. It is not like Jeff or I are talking about this in a bubble. The camp we both attended last year these things were openly talked about and every person talking about them were much higher level officials than both of us at this current time.

Peace

Oh, really?

"Also if I have 8 to 1 in fouls, I certainly do not want to miss any fouls against the team that has 8."

Sounds like finding a foul to me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Let's see...we are talking about being aware of a disparity in foul counts and you spin it to being aware of the bonus...typical.

Is the foul count not about more than just one issue? Bonus and when we shoot bonus is something coaches tend to bring up. And if you mess up, it is going to be an issue as well as answering questions about, "Why are they shooting the bonus and we are not?"

Originally Posted by blindzebra

You were the one who said, you will be aware and won't be passing on something you could call against the team on the plus side of 8-1...let's not back track now.

If you are truly an experienced official, you know we pass on many things. Just like the play at the end of Game 3, we make decisions not to call certain plays because they do not pass the "smell test." Maybe I have called an illegal screen earlier in the game and I for some reason passed on other screens that might have been suspect (but were really fouls) and I and my partners swallowed our whistles because there was hardly any advantage or I did not get a good look at them. So as a competent official that might have missed something, I am not going to be fooled the next time in to not calling something that was there. If you read what I said, we might get to 20 to 1 before I call a foul on the team with 1 foul. But at least I want to know in my mind and with my partners (when we talk later in the locker room)

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Just admit it, you want to get a coach off your back by making a cosmetic change in the foul count, instead of calling what's there and handling the howler monkey.

I live in the western suburbs of Chicago. I worked this past year in Quincy, Illinois and as north as Grayslake or Antioch (use a map). I also worked two games in the Quad Cities and paid more in gas to get there than I did working the game. Now ask yourself (after looking at a map) how many coaches did I pass to work those games? Ask yourself how many times will I see these coaches again in my career? Unless the live in the Chicago area, likely I might not see them again in the next 4 or 5 years. And there are a couple of conferences in this area I do not work. Why would I give a damn about some coach that I will not see again?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Oh, really?

"Also if I have 8 to 1 in fouls, I certainly do not want to miss any fouls against the team that has 8."

Sounds like finding a foul to me.

I understand the concept is over your head. I will stop trying to explain it to you.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is the foul count not about more than just one issue? Bonus and when we shoot bonus is something coaches tend to bring up. And if you mess up, it is going to be an issue as well as answering questions about, "Why are they shooting the bonus and we are not?"



If you are truly an experienced official, you know we pass on many things. Just like the play at the end of Game 3, we make decisions not to call certain plays because they do not pass the "smell test." Maybe I have called an illegal screen earlier in the game and I for some reason passed on other screens that might have been suspect (but were really fouls) and I and my partners swallowed our whistles because there was hardly any advantage or I did not get a good look at them. So as a competent official that might have missed something, I am not going to be fooled the next time in to not calling something that was there. If you read what I said, we might get to 20 to 1 before I call a foul on the team with 1 foul. But at least I want to know in my mind and with my partners (when we talk later in the locker room)



I live in the western suburbs of Chicago. I worked this past year in Quincy, Illinois and as north as Grayslake or Antioch (use a map). I also worked two games in the Quad Cities and paid more in gas to get there than I did working the game. Now ask yourself (after looking at a map) how many coaches did I pass to work those games? Ask yourself how many times will I see these coaches again in my career? Unless the live in the Chicago area, likely I might not see them again in the next 4 or 5 years. And there are a couple of conferences in this area I do not work. Why would I give a damn about some coach that I will not see again?

Peace

Ahh, yes when all else fails post the resume.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I understand the concept is over your head. I will stop trying to explain it to you.

Peace

No the concept is a cosmetic one, because of the scrutiny D-1 guys are under, that HS officials aren't.

You are trying to impose a philosophy that doesn't belong in a HS game, just like calling a HS game using NBA guidelines isn't a good idea either.

There are plenty of these "concepts" out there, doesn't make them correct or appropriate for lower levels. Most aren't correct for the levels they are at either, but I regress.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

No the concept is a cosmetic one, because of the scrutiny D-1 guys are under, that HS officials aren't.

Speak for yourself.

Maybe this is how it is where you live, but not here. I worked a football game about 2 seasons ago and I was involved in 2 calls that not only were scrutinized, but was made a major issue by the assignor. Now this game was not even on public access or a major game in the bigger scheme of things. The paper did not even make an issue out of the plays and you would have thought the world was coming to and end. The game even affected my crew working the following year for this particular assignor. Now this was a football game which is a distant second on the scale that basketball has in this state. And you say that D1 officials are under more scrutiny? I will agree that D1 officials are under much pressure from more sides, but if we (the lowly HS official) screws up, I have seen similar punishments brought down or plays being dissected as they are on the D1 level.

Originally Posted by blindzebra

You are trying to impose a philosophy that doesn't belong in a HS game, just like calling a HS game using NBA guidelines isn't a good idea either.

We disagree. I do not even believe I used the term "college" in my discussion of this issue. I certainly did not say "college philosophy." Next thing you are going to say I should not watch the clock after every basket or during a timeout, because in all accounts that is a "college philosophy" as it relates the shot clock and something hardly ever taught at the HS level (at least around here).

Originally Posted by blindzebra

There are plenty of these "concepts" out there, doesn't make them correct or appropriate for lower levels. Most aren't correct for the levels they are at either, but I regress.

There are a lot of "concepts" that apply to all levels. Once again, I did not realize making sure you are consistent on both ends and that you are not missing fouls is a "concept" for only college and the NBA.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

At least your movie popcorn looks fresh...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Ahh, yes when all else fails post the resume.

Usually a resume involves dates, specific conferences and even level. And where I work and when I work affects how I look at what I do. Sorry, I do not work in a 10 mile radius and everything a coach says affects me to the point I become stagnant. So when you say I want a coach off my back, then why would I care if I might not see a coach ever again?

I worked a game in Peoria, Illinois on Sunday (I must emphasize it was a damn summer league game that pays less than what I will make where I currently live) because I was near the town and I was asked to by a friend of mine to work with them. I guess that is a resume issue to you as well.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Usually a resume involves dates, specific conferences and even level. And where I work and when I work affects how I look at what I do. Sorry, I do not work in a 10 mile radius and everything a coach says affects me to the point I become stagnant. So when you say I want a coach off my back, then why would I care if I might not see a coach ever again?

I worked a game in Peoria, Illinois on Sunday (I must emphasize it was a damn summer league game that pays less than what I will make where I currently live) because I was near the town and I was asked to by a friend of mine to work with them. I guess that is a resume issue to you as well.

Peace

Please, whenever you get cornered we see the same old tired here's where I work, followed by the equally tired, "Well that may be where you are but around here."

As if the sun rises and sets on the Illinois...guess what? Nobody gives a crap where your games are or what they do in your area, doesn't change the fact you are full of crap.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Rocky, you and I have already established we do not see eye to eye on things. Why would this be any different?

Peace

Hey!! How did I get drug into this mess? You're arguing with blindzebra, not me...we haven't disagreed about anything in a long time.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Because it is not important to you does not make it not important for other officials. BTW, it is very important to keep your behind out of having a correctable error (which has happen to me based on what the foul board says).

I'm with Rut on this one. Yes, 99 times out of 100, the disparity is just because of how the teams are playing - in this case, knowing about it might let me address the coach if he complains about it and might keep my crew out of trouble. Also, I don't have a problem with looking at my calls and wondering if there IS something I'm missing. I'm not going to invent or ignore fouls, but maybe I've been stuck on one end of the court for a while and I'm just not getting good angles that night. Knowing about that in advance can help me adjust and make better calls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Please, whenever you get cornered we see the same old tired here's where I work, followed by the equally tired, "Well that may be where you are but around here."

As if the sun rises and sets on the Illinois...guess what? Nobody gives a crap where your games are or what they do in your area, doesn't change the fact you are full of crap.

Here is the thing zeb, you asked a question and I gave you and answer. If you do not like the answer, then do not ask the question. It is really that simply. Just because you are insecure in what you do, that does not mean it applies to me.

Peace