Carrying a weak partner

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I do not believe it proper to label someone in that manner. Especially, when they may not be aware of it.

Is it so hard to say? I worked with an official who is still developing as an official.

I do not have a problem with the label. Labels are just apart of life. I think calling someone a "weak partner" is a lot better than saying they are terrible or "he cannot work." I know we are having this conversation here, but in the real world people are not always as kind. Let us not be so PC that we lose the point that was trying to be made. Whatever you call someone not as experienced the point is that many of us will work with someone that is weaker, not as good, not as experienced, not as competent for a lot of reasons. When we do run into someone like that, how do you handle it? That was all the OP was about.

Peace

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

What do you mean by this?

officials who are "in over their heads" have trouble keeping up with the speed of the game....the only thing they can do is to try and focus on the plays happening in front of them; they do no have the ability to pay attention to game management issues...one of them being the foul count (i.e. Visitor Fouls 8 - Home Fouls 1).

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I do not believe it proper to label someone in that manner. Especially, when they may not be aware of it.

Is it so hard to say? I worked with an official who is still developing as an official.

But in most cases the official that is that weak partner, isn't in development they just don't care, that's the point.

Like I said before, you may be working with someone new who is trying, so yes they are "weaker" than you but that isn't the question being asked in this thread. The OP was talking about that partner where all the tricks you'd use with that inexperienced official...communicating every chance you get, being a great partner, leading by example, staying on top of all game management situations...just don't work.

Those partners that frustrate me are the ones who don't care, don't want to improve because they either think they don't need to or don't care because all they want is the cash. Those guys aren't developing.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not have a problem with the label. Labels are just apart of life. I think calling someone a "weak partner" is a lot better than saying they are terrible or "he cannot work." I know we are having this conversation here, but in the real world people are not always as kind. Let us not be so PC that we lose the point that was trying to be made. Whatever you call someone not as experienced the point is that many of us will work with someone that is weaker, not as good, not as experienced, not as competent for a lot of reasons. When we do run into someone like that, how do you handle it? That was all the OP was about.

Peace

I got what the OP was seeking initial. My attempt was to point out that sometimes we may have to take into consideration how we label other from our own personal perspective.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

usually a weaker partner is just trying to "survive" the game by trying to get the calls right. he/she can't focus on all the "other stuff" (i.e. game management). that's where you have to step in and handle most, if not all, of those duties. take the pressure off of him or her by talking to/dealing with players, coaches, problem situations, etc. they are too busy officiating to notice lopsided foul counts, players who are becoming a problem, and controlling the benches.

you can't make every call for them (although you may have to "reach" a little now and then).

Why should we care about lopsided foul counts?

Our job is calling what's there, not making the fouls even.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I got what the OP was seeking initial. My attempt was to point out that sometimes we may have to take into consideration how we label other from our own personal perspective.

This is where you and I disagree. We are talking about someone's ability; we are not talking about a feature that cannot change. Actually many of us here could and have said a lot worse.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Why should we care about lopsided foul counts?

Our job is calling what's there, not making the fouls even.

You might not ultimately care, but you might want to know what the fuss is about. Also if I have 8 to 1 in fouls, I certainly do not want to miss any fouls against the team that has 8. Having said that the foul count can get to 20 to 1 for all I care. I think good officials are at the very least aware of the disparity. Often times there is a good reason for the foul disparity like one team playing zone and the other team playing a full court press.

Peace

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is where you and I disagree. We are talking about someone's ability; we are not talking about a feature that cannot change. Actually many of us here could and have said a lot worse.

Peace

Ok. I see you point and the points you have made.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You might not ultimately care, but you might want to know what the fuss is about. Also if I have 8 to 1 in fouls, I certainly do not want to miss any fouls against the team that has 8. Having said that the foul count can get to 20 to 1 for all I care. I think good officials are at the very least aware of the disparity. Often times there is a good reason for the foul disparity like one team playing zone and the other team playing a full court press.

Peace

We don't need to communicate it's 8-1 with our partners, since we'd be hearing call it both ways and hey ref it's 8-1 from the fans and coaches anyway.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

We don't need to communicate it's 8-1 with our partners, since we'd be hearing call it both ways and hey ref it's 8-1 from the fans and coaches anyway.

I do not think anyone suggested that we communicate with our partners about anything. Game management issues often are things you personally are aware of and we only communicate to our partners when necessary. But a coach going off about the foul count is likely and personally being aware of this will help you answer a question about it or make sure you are calling similar plays all over the court.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not think anyone suggested that we communicate with our partners about anything. Game management issues often are things you personally are aware of and we only communicate to our partners when necessary. But a coach going off about the foul count is likely and personally being aware of this will help you answer a question about it or make sure you are calling similar plays all over the court.

Peace

You answer a coach yelling foul counts and have to think about it?

WOW.

I basically have two responses:

"Tell your kids to stop fouling."

"Are you saying I'm cheating or incompetent?" "Because I really want to know which T I'll be giving you."

And I'm going to continue calling what is there and not start looking for stuff to make the scoreboard look better.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

You answer a coach yelling foul counts and have to think about it?

WOW.

I basically have two responses:

"Tell your kids to stop fouling."

"Are you saying I'm cheating or incompetent?" "Because I really want to know which T I'll be giving you."

And I'm going to continue calling what is there and not start looking for stuff to make the scoreboard look better.

Who said anything about thinking about it?

To me foul counts are no different than being aware of who is jawing at each other and nipping that in the bud.

Do not blow things out of portion, what we call "game management" are things that we should be aware of in order to keep things smooth. If a coach is constantly gripping about something you should address it eventually or things might go in a direction you do not want it to go.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who said anything about thinking about it?

To me foul counts are no different than being aware of who is jawing at each other and nipping that in the bud.

Do not blow things out of portion, what we call "game management" are things that we should be aware of in order to keep things smooth. If a coach is constantly gripping about something you should address it eventually or things might go in a direction you do not want it to go.

Peace

BS...There is no reason to be aware of foul counts, none.

Coaches yapping about it, you address the yapping, not the foul count causing the yapping.

As for game management, I'll nip that in the bud too.

Coach A is yapping about foul counts...suddenly JRut "finds" a couple of fouls on team B, since he's now aware of a foul disperity...coach B sees this and you know what happens?

Now you have two coaches yapping...your game management just got harder.

I suppose the howler monkey yelling 3 seconds every trip has you scanning the paint, making sure you haven't missed the big guy toasting marshmellows, too?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

BS...There is no reason to be aware of foul counts, none.

Coaches yapping about it, you address the yapping, not the foul count causing the yapping.

I suppose the howler monkey yelling 3 seconds every trip has you scanning the paint, making sure you haven't missed the big guy toasting marshmellows, too?

Because it is not important to you does not make it not important for other officials. BTW, it is very important to keep your behind out of having a correctable error (which has happen to me based on what the foul board says).

Also if a coach is yelling 3 seconds every time up the court it will be addressed. Then again most coaches at the level I work get the hint and it is almost never addressed.

Zeb, you and I have already established we do not see eye to eye on things. Why would this be any different?

Peace

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Now you have two coaches yapping...your game management just got harder.

I suppose the howler monkey yelling 3 seconds every trip has you scanning the paint, making sure you haven't missed the big guy toasting marshmellows, too?

This is where that software eliminating the noise by whining coaches and fans would come in handy I am going to google for that stuff