New AP throw in rule

[sseltser]

Team A has an AP throw-in. The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of A1.

The OP has the throw-in immediately kicked by B1. This tells us that the first throw-in did not end, since the ball was not legally touched by another player (rule change) 4-42-5.

More specifically, 6-4-4 says that "The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

Neither of these happened, so the AP throw-in hasn't ended. When the next throw-in is completed, the arrow should switch.


We also have to look at 6-4-5 which states, "The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow."

This tells us to switch the arrow is the throw-in team violates, not to switch for a foul by either team, but doesn't instruct in the case of a defensive team violation.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by sseltser

"The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

Neither of these happened, so the AP throw-in hasn't ended. When the next throw-in is completed, the arrow should switch.

Seltser, this is incorrect. Others have tried to point this out, but I guess I'll take a crack at it. Since the AP throw-in didn't end, the arrow is not switched. The next throw-in is NOT an AP throw-in. It is the result of the kick. Since it's not an AP throw-in, the arrow does not come into play at all. After the kick, there is simply a designated spot throw-in, and the arrow will not change.

This tells us to switch the arrow is the throw-in team violates, not to switch for a foul by either team, but doesn't instruct in the case of a defensive team violation.

That's because the defensive violation carries its own penalty, which does not involve the AP arrow.

[AFHusker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"That doesn't make any SENSE!" Not "That doesn't make any SINCE!"

Good grief!

I sensed someone saying this since some people here don't make any sense when they give their two cents.

[hbioteach]

AP throw in by team A KICKED BY B1. ap throw in never ended. Arrow stays for A. Another AP throwin by A legally touched. Now arrow is switched to B.
basicly, kick is like the orginal throwin never happened.

I THINK THIS IS LIKE A KICK BALL NOT GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO RUN THE BASELINE.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Neither of these happened, so the AP throw-in hasn't ended. When the next throw-in is completed, the arrow should switch.

We also have to look at 6-4-5 which states, "The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow."

This tells us to switch the arrow is the throw-in team violates, not to switch for a foul by either team, but doesn't instruct in the case of a defensive team violation.

Wrong salsa. Wrong.

Originally Posted by hbioteach

AP throw in by team A KICKED BY B1. ap throw in never ended. Arrow stays for A. Another AP throwin by A legally touched. Now arrow is switched to B.
basicly, kick is like the orginal throwin never happened.

Wrong HBO. Wrong.

[sseltser]

Wrong salsa. Wrong.

Wrong HBO. Wrong.

Any chance of you backing up these with some reasoning?

I'm not saying I am completely right, but there is nothing in the rules that say that the a defensive violation on the throw-in cause the arrow to not switch. It mentions fouls and offensive violations, but not defensive violations.

Why can't the next throw-in also be an AP throw-in?

6-4-5:
"The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow."

Since none of these happened and the original throw-in has not ended, the opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in still exists.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I'm not saying I am completely right, but there is nothing in the rules that say that the a defensive violation on the throw-in cause the arrow to not switch. It mentions fouls and offensive violations, but not defensive violations.

No, but it does tell us when the arrow DOES switch.

I'll cite the rules for you. If you won't accept them, there's not much I can do.

6-4-4
The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates.

Since the throw-in did not end and Team A did not violate, the arrow is not changed.

9-4
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-44, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.
NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.
PENALTY:The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

When a player intentionally kicks the ball, it's a violation. The ball is then awarded to the offended team. It makes no difference what happened prior to the kick. We are now dealing only with the violation by B. That violation gives the ball to Team A for a throw-in. The arrow is NOT changed.

It's no different that if Team B had fouled before the throw-in ended. For example:

A1 has the ball for a throw-in. B1 fouls A2 before the throw-in ends. It's the 5th team foul on team B. That foul gives the ball to Team A for a throw-in. The arrow is NOT changed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Seltser, this is incorrect. Others have tried to point this out, but I guess I'll take a crack at it. Since the AP throw-in didn't end, the arrow is not switched. The next throw-in is NOT an AP throw-in. It is the result of the kick. Since it's not an AP throw-in, the arrow does not come into play at all. After the kick, there is simply a designated spot throw-in, and the arrow will not change.

That's because the defensive violation carries its own penalty, which does not involve the AP arrow.

Didn't work, Skippy.

BktBallRef is gonna give it a shot now, but it doesn't look good. .

[rainmaker]

It looks to me as though there could be a logical way to reason our way to either outcome. Personally, I'd lean toward the kick not causing the AP throw-in to end, but rather for that resulting throw-in to still be an AP throw-in. But it appears that the Fed Rules Committee doesn't think that way, so we'll have to do it their way. I don't like it, but there it is. I hope they give us a case play on it, though.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4)You tell the freaking coach that it's the freaking rule. That's exactly the same as you do any other time that you might get questioned. Who cares if the coach might happen to be as dumb as you are when it comes to the rules and doesn't understand them either?

That's just plain uncall for but coming from you, not a big surprise. The moderators let you say and get away with a lot more than some of us. If I talked like this my whole thread would get deleted.

Anyway, I'm going to try this one more time.
1.) Beep! Jump ball!!!!
2.) Jump ball AP arrows points to team A
3.) Team A given ball for throw-in.
4.) Violation, kick ball on defense
5.) Team A inbound ball again, successfully.
6.) Beep! Jump ball again!
7.) AP still points to Team A because AP throw-in never occurred because of violation on defense. Team B coach goes ballistic and gets ejected. Reasoning is he knows that nobody in charge of the rules in their right mind would think of something like that, and accuses referee's of cheating.
8.) Team A given ball for inbound from AP
9.) Team B violation again, kick ball
10.) Team A inbound again from kick ball violation, successfully
11.) Beep! Jump ball
12.) AP still points to Team A.

In case you can't figure my example out JR because you have too much hate in your heart, that's 3 jump balls, 3 consequtive jump balls, all going to the same team. That defeats the purpose of the AP arrow. If you reason this is okay and consistent with thE rules of fair play. You need to get the hell out of basketball because you are ruining the sport with your legal BS!

Again, if this is the way I am understanding this rule then it is wrong, this is cheating in my book. If we can't get the AP rules right then screw it and let's toss the ball center circle on all the jump balls. That is fair play, IMHO!

[Bad Zebra]

Why is this so hard for some to grasp? If the defense, say B team, violates during a throw in, it is a violation that carries it's own remedy. Forget the AP throw in. It becomes irrelevant when a defending team violates during a throw in. If they keep violating (Kicking) on the throw in, the other team retains right to the throw in.

Why be concerned about an AP arrow when the violation is the current issue to address?

Am I being too simplistic here?

OS, whereinthehell is there cheating? Team B keeps violating (See your 4 & 9 above), team A keeps tossing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

10 If I talked like this my whole thread would get deleted.

2) Anyway, I'm going to try this one more time.
1.) Beep! Jump ball!!!!
2.) Jump ball AP arrows points to team A
3.) Team A given ball for throw-in.
4.) Violation, kick ball on defense
5.) Team A inbound ball again, successfully.
6.) Beep! Jump ball again!
7.) AP still points to Team A because AP throw-in never occurred because of violation on defense. Team B coach goes ballistic and gets ejected. Reasoning is he knows that nobody in charge of the rules in their right mind would think of something like that, and accuses referee's of cheating.
8.) Team A given ball for inbound from AP
9.) Team B violation again, kick ball
10.) Team A inbound again from kick ball violation, successfully
11.) Beep! Jump ball
12.) AP still points to Team A.
In case you can't figure my example out JR because you have too much hate in your heart, that's 3 jump balls, 3 consequtive jump balls, all going to the same team. That defeats the purpose of the AP arrow. If you reason this is okay and consistent with thE rules of fair play. You need to get the hell out of basketball because you are ruining the sport with your legal BS!

Again, if this is the way I am understanding this rule then it is wrong, this is cheating in my book. If we can't get the AP rules right then screw it and let's toss the ball center circle on all the jump balls. That is fair play, IMHO!

1) Your threads get deleted because they're idiotic, moronic and absolutely useless as relating to anything remotely resembling real basketball officiating. Simply put, you're a troll. You were a troll over on McGriffs, JMO, and you brought your same tired act over here.

2) Yup, that's 3 consecutive jumps balls given to Team A because that's what the damn rules tell us to do. And again, who cares if the coach is as freaking stoopid as you are and doesn't understand the rules either after it is explained to him. If he's that dumb, he can go sit in the stands beside you. Because it's a rule, I sureashell don't expect YOU to understand it, JMO. It's also a waste of damn time explaining it to you either because you obviously can't understand the explanation. Do what the hell you want to do in your crappy rec league leagues. Nobody there understands the rules anyway, and if they do you can always pull your usual bullsh!t. Just a little warning though; if by some weird chance you ever do get put on a real basketball game--maybe a high school Frosh or JV game or something like that(because every other official in your area except you came down sick on the same day)-- don't try your usual bullsh!t. Even brand-new Frosh coaches will know more about the rules than you do.

Freaking amazing. Get out of basketball because you know the damn rules and how to apply them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Why is this so hard for some to grasp? If the defense, say B team, violates during a throw in, it is a violation that carries it's own remedy. Forget the AP throw in. It becomes irrelevant when a defending team violates during a throw in. If they keep violating (Kicking) on the throw in, the other team retains right to the throw in.

Why be concerned about an AP arrow when the violation is the current issue to address?

Am I being too simplistic here?

OS, whereinthehell is there cheating? Team B keeps violating (See your 4 & 9 above), team A keeps tossing.

Naw, you're just repeating what a whole bunch of other officials have already said. You won't get through to Old School though; that's a hopeless cause. Maybe some other people reading this thread will figure it out though..hopefully.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Old School

In case you can't figure my example out JR because you have too much hate in your heart, that's 3 jump balls, 3 consequtive jump balls, all going to the same team. That defeats the purpose of the AP arrow. If you reason this is okay and consistent with thE rules of fair play. You need to get the hell out of basketball because you are ruining the sport with your legal BS!

(a) I've seen this happen before, and the B coach might question it, but I've never seen it go to the point where he gets T'ed up, much less ejected from the game.
(b) If, for some reason, B's coach gets ejected, there MUST be a technical foul involved. Possession will be awarded to B for that, so no AP situation there.
(c) If you don't think you can handle these 'complicated' and 'heinously unfair' rules, then p*ss off and go officiate lawn darts.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

(c) If you don't think you can handle these 'complicated' and 'heinously unfair' rules, then piss off and go officiate lawn darts.

Shouldn't that be "dexter off"?