New AP throw in rule

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

Well, I guess am not in the camp of giving a "complete" throw in. I would think that the team receiving the throw in got the "advantage" or the "reward" of the AP arrow when the ball was not given to team B for a throw in to begin with.

How can they be rewarded with something that they had in the first place? They had the arrow. Why should they lose it because of a violation by the other team?

That logic makes no sense at all.

[sseltser]

Why isn't the throwin after the kicked ball another AP throwin?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Why isn't the throwin after the kicked ball another AP throwin?

What is the penalty for a kicked ball?

Answer: a throw-in for the other team.

The AP is a non-factor. Changing the arrow is not part of the kicked-ball penalty.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

However, under the new rule, Team B suffers a "penalty" for kicking the ball on a throw in.

Ah....that's nothing new. Team B has ALWAYS suffered a penalty for kicking the ball on a throw-in.

Originally Posted by sseltser

Why isn't the throwin after the kicked ball another AP throwin?

An AP throw-in occurs after a held ball situation, not after the ball is kicked.

BTW folks, the word is

SENSE,
NOT SINCE!

"That doesn't make any SENSE!" Not "That doesn't make any SINCE!"

Good grief!

[sseltser]

Team A has an AP throw-in. The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of A1.

The OP has the throw-in immediately kicked by B1. This tells us that the first throw-in did not end, since the ball was not legally touched by another player (rule change) 4-42-5.

More specifically, 6-4-4 says that "The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

Neither of these happened, so the AP throw-in hasn't ended. When the next throw-in is completed, the arrow should switch.


We also have to look at 6-4-5 which states, "The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow."

This tells us to switch the arrow is the throw-in team violates, not to switch for a foul by either team, but doesn't instruct in the case of a defensive team violation.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by sseltser

"The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

Neither of these happened, so the AP throw-in hasn't ended. When the next throw-in is completed, the arrow should switch.

Seltser, this is incorrect. Others have tried to point this out, but I guess I'll take a crack at it. Since the AP throw-in didn't end, the arrow is not switched. The next throw-in is NOT an AP throw-in. It is the result of the kick. Since it's not an AP throw-in, the arrow does not come into play at all. After the kick, there is simply a designated spot throw-in, and the arrow will not change.

This tells us to switch the arrow is the throw-in team violates, not to switch for a foul by either team, but doesn't instruct in the case of a defensive team violation.

That's because the defensive violation carries its own penalty, which does not involve the AP arrow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Seltser, this is incorrect. Others have tried to point this out, but I guess I'll take a crack at it. Since the AP throw-in didn't end, the arrow is not switched. The next throw-in is NOT an AP throw-in. It is the result of the kick. Since it's not an AP throw-in, the arrow does not come into play at all. After the kick, there is simply a designated spot throw-in, and the arrow will not change.

That's because the defensive violation carries its own penalty, which does not involve the AP arrow.

Didn't work, Skippy.

BktBallRef is gonna give it a shot now, but it doesn't look good. .

[rainmaker]

It looks to me as though there could be a logical way to reason our way to either outcome. Personally, I'd lean toward the kick not causing the AP throw-in to end, but rather for that resulting throw-in to still be an AP throw-in. But it appears that the Fed Rules Committee doesn't think that way, so we'll have to do it their way. I don't like it, but there it is. I hope they give us a case play on it, though.

[AFHusker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"That doesn't make any SENSE!" Not "That doesn't make any SINCE!"

Good grief!

I sensed someone saying this since some people here don't make any sense when they give their two cents.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by AFHusker

I sensed someone saying this since some people here don't make any sense when they give their two cents.

Is there more?? LOL

[hbioteach]

AP throw in by team A KICKED BY B1. ap throw in never ended. Arrow stays for A. Another AP throwin by A legally touched. Now arrow is switched to B.
basicly, kick is like the orginal throwin never happened.

I THINK THIS IS LIKE A KICK BALL NOT GIVING UP THE RIGHT TO RUN THE BASELINE.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by sseltser

Neither of these happened, so the AP throw-in hasn't ended. When the next throw-in is completed, the arrow should switch.

We also have to look at 6-4-5 which states, "The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow."

This tells us to switch the arrow is the throw-in team violates, not to switch for a foul by either team, but doesn't instruct in the case of a defensive team violation.

Wrong salsa. Wrong.

Originally Posted by hbioteach

AP throw in by team A KICKED BY B1. ap throw in never ended. Arrow stays for A. Another AP throwin by A legally touched. Now arrow is switched to B.
basicly, kick is like the orginal throwin never happened.

Wrong HBO. Wrong.

[sseltser]

Wrong salsa. Wrong.

Wrong HBO. Wrong.

Any chance of you backing up these with some reasoning?

I'm not saying I am completely right, but there is nothing in the rules that say that the a defensive violation on the throw-in cause the arrow to not switch. It mentions fouls and offensive violations, but not defensive violations.

Why can't the next throw-in also be an AP throw-in?

6-4-5:
"The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating-possession throw-in, it does not cause the throw-in team to lose the possession arrow."

Since none of these happened and the original throw-in has not ended, the opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in still exists.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by sseltser

I'm not saying I am completely right, but there is nothing in the rules that say that the a defensive violation on the throw-in cause the arrow to not switch. It mentions fouls and offensive violations, but not defensive violations.

No, but it does tell us when the arrow DOES switch.

I'll cite the rules for you. If you won't accept them, there's not much I can do.

6-4-4
The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates.

Since the throw-in did not end and Team A did not violate, the arrow is not changed.

9-4
A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-44, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.
NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.
PENALTY:The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.

When a player intentionally kicks the ball, it's a violation. The ball is then awarded to the offended team. It makes no difference what happened prior to the kick. We are now dealing only with the violation by B. That violation gives the ball to Team A for a throw-in. The arrow is NOT changed.

It's no different that if Team B had fouled before the throw-in ended. For example:

A1 has the ball for a throw-in. B1 fouls A2 before the throw-in ends. It's the 5th team foul on team B. That foul gives the ball to Team A for a throw-in. The arrow is NOT changed.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

SENSE,
NOT SINCE!

"That doesn't make any SENSE!" Not "That doesn't make any SINCE!"

Good grief!

THank you sir for clarifying that. If I had to see "since & sense" misapplied one more time before completely reading this thread I probably would've made the FONT bigger then what you did.

Here's one even better. SINCE some (o/s) on this forum never read a rule book, it makes no SENSE for them to post on this discussion board. I had to get that out.. Now I'll continue on to page 3 of this thread.