New AP throw in rule

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by todd66

The National Federation of High Schools has changed it's rule 4-42-5 to read that the throw in ends when the throw in pass is "legally" touched by another player. After reading the comments on this change, it appears that the intent of this rule is not allow a team to lose their AP throw in because of a violation by the defense.

Here is a scenario. Please comment on whether this is the way this rule is to be interpreted. Team A has a AP throw in. The thrower releases the pass and a member to team B kicks the pass. Team B is called for the kicking violation and team A is given a spot throw in for the violation. Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.

Is this the correct interpretation?

Yep.

[Old School]

That doesn't make since!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

That doesn't make since!

Since when?

Here is a scenario. Please comment on whether this is the way this rule is to be interpreted. Team A has a AP throw in. The thrower releases the pass and a member to team B kicks the pass. Team B is called for the kicking violation and team A is given a spot throw in for the violation.

So a kicking violation by Team B on an AP throw-in results in a spot throw-in... doesn't that put Team A at a disadvantage??


Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.
Shouldn't the arrow switch to Team B after the A's successful throw-in is complete?

Help me out.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Team A now successfully completes the throw in pass. During play a held ball occurs. Team A gets the throw in due to the AP arrow since their original AP throw in never ended.
Shouldn't the arrow switch to Team B after the A's successful throw-in is complete?

My thoughts exactly....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

So a kicking violation by Team B on an AP throw-in results in a spot throw-in... doesn't that put Team A at a disadvantage??

How does it put A at a disadvantage? B kicked the ball, A gets the ball OOB for a throw-in.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Shouldn't the arrow switch to Team B after the A's successful throw-in is complete?

There has been discussion in the past about whether the arrow needed to be switched as soon as B kicked it on the initial throw-in. Now the Fed. is clarifying that the touch on the original AP throw-in has to be a legal touch. So, in the play mentioned, the initial AP throw-in was not completed, and therefore the arrow doesn't change. So the initial AP throw-in was not completed (arrow stays with A), the second throw-in is for the kicking violation, and the next time there is an AP throw-in A will get it.

Does that make sense?

M&M Guy: Thanks for the clarification, but I already thought it through (see post#8).

When OS agreed with me, I decided that I needed to think harder. j/k

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

M&M Guy: Thanks for the clarification, but I already thought it through (see post#8).

When OS agreed with me, I decided that I needed to think harder. j/k

I know - I'm just slow on the keyboard.

(That and actually trying to get work done at the same time...sheesh...)

[todd66]

Thanks M&M. Our Assn had quite a discussion last night on this and we could not come to a consensus. Once I take this thread to the next meeting, I beleive we all be on the same page.

[dkmz17]

I agree with M&M's interpretation of the rule, but I wonder about the rule's logic...

Assume that before the throw in Team B had the ball and B1 was involved in a jump ball situation. Team A is awarded the throw in on the AP, so Team B has now lost possession. In the OP, Team B then kicks the ball on the throw in, so the rule gives Team A the throw in because of the kick (not because of the jump ball) and leaves the AP arrow with Team A. If Team B has another jump ball on the their next possession, they lose the ball again on the AP. What is the logic in giving Team A the AP possession twice in a row in this type of situation?

Ohhh okay, now I get it!
After the kicking violation on B, it is no longer an AP throw-in for A, it's a throw-in for that violation.

Thus the next time we go to the AP it remains with Team A since they never used it. That makes since...
Even though B can lose the AP twice in a row, it their own fault for kicking the ball. That's the ticket

[dkmz17]

So if Team B reaches for the ball on the throw in, touches it with his/her hand, and then it drops and is kicked by Team B, the AP arrow changes? I still don't see the reason to differentiate between a violation that occurs as the first thing to happen after the throw in and one that occurs after the ball is "legally touched". Any comments?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

So if Team B reaches for the ball on the throw in, touches it with his/her hand, and then it drops and is kicked by Team B, the AP arrow changes? I still don't see the reason to differentiate between a violation that occurs as the first thing to happen after the throw in and one that occurs after the ball is "legally touched". Any comments?

You've got it.

That's why the discussion before this was interesting - on a kick, would the ball be legally touched (for a fraction of a second), then the violation? Or is the kick a violation immediately? We now know it's a violation immediately.

[dkmz17]

One last question, as a guy that is frequently the timer or scorekeeper for games, will the officials signal the table that the throw in never ended and the AP arrow should not change?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

One last question, as a guy that is frequently the timer or scorekeeper for games, will the officials signal the table that the throw in never ended and the AP arrow should not change?

Hopefully. There is no "signal", per se, but the officials should communicate in some fashion that the arrow needs to stay with the same team, and that the next throw-in is for the violation. As a table person, now that you know the rule, you can remind the officials as well in that situation if they don't remember the change.