New AP throw in rule

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by WIRef

.. the rule does not cheat Team B when the AP arrow is kept for Team A. Team A never got to complete their opportunity for the AP because of the "kick" violation. Thus, they will still have the next opportunity when that arises.

You got it. The penalty for the kicking violation is a separate throw-in. Period.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

Nobody making up their own rules. The problem here, at least for you word scholars, is the completion of the AP throw-in resulting in the arrow being pointed the other way.

To me, far too much attention is being placed on the completion when, imo, once the team is granted the arrow, then it should switch. Otherwise, enter the word scholar bullsh!t. Now you're saying the throw-in didn't complete so the arrow don't chance. That's BS. The AP has or should have nothing to do with the throw-in. It grants possession, that's it!

I guess I'm the only one out here who actually cares about the game. You are only concerned about the rules and that's too bad.

The game is defined by the rules. You could also believe that instead of shooting into a basket, the players should be kicking into goal nets. But then it wouldn't be basketball anymore.

By the same token, keep changing the rules, and the game won't be the same anymore. The "word scholar" bs as you call it, is our efforts to care about the game by carefully keeping the rules consistent. When YOU decide to do things YOUR way, it's YOU that aren't caring about the game. The game IS the rules.

[Old School]

Okay, let me try it this way. In the beginning of the game before the AP arrow is set we jump the ball. Beep, before the toss we got a violation. Team A receives possesion of the ball. Once the ball becomes live, the arrow is pointed to Team B. Now, let's say for argument sake that before the ball became live, we had a kick ball violation on Team B. AP arrow not set. Who gets the arrow now? Still, team B because A gets the ball from the violation of the jump.

Officials have argued that what you call (foul) in the beginning of the game, you call it the same in the end. Well, that is not the case here. To start the game, we set the arrow but we don't do that in the middle or the end of the game. We wait until something after the fact happens. That is not the original intent of the AP arrow, imho.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Old School

Nobody making up their own rules.

At least you're the one calling yourself a "nobody" this time.

To me, far too much attention is being placed on the completion when, imo, once the team is granted the arrow, then it should switch.

Now you've switched the discussion from "what the rule is" to "what the rule should be". You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and welcome to write the FED rules committee. When we had this discussion before, there were parties on both sides of the issue.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, let me try it this way. In the beginning of the game before the AP arrow is set we jump the ball. Beep, before the toss we got a violation. Team A receives possesion of the ball. Once the ball becomes live, the arrow is pointed to Team B. Now, let's say for argument sake that before the ball became live, we had a kick ball violation on Team B. AP arrow not set.

How are we going to have a "kick ball violation" before the ball becomes live?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

In the beginning of the game before the AP arrow is set we jump the ball. Beep, before the toss we got a violation. Team A receives possesion of the ball. Once the ball becomes live, the arrow is pointed to Team B. Now, let's say for argument sake that before the ball became live, we had a kick ball violation on Team B. AP arrow not set. Who gets the arrow now? Still, team B because A gets the ball from the violation of the jump.

Let's just say for the sake of the freaking rules that you CAN'T have a violation before the ball is tossed. The ball isn't live yet. Also, let's say for the sake of the freaking rules that you CAN'T have a freaking kicked ball violation before the ball becomes live either. It's impossible in both cases according to the rules!

Why do you keep trying?

[OHBBREF]

OS
There is no word smithing going on here - and it is not BS it is the RULE -

To address your point - That the arrow grant possession only - fine - But should I lose that possession because of something the other team did? That puts me at the disadvantage.
Example: Team A is awarded an AP throw in late in a very close game, with the ball at the disposal of the thrower - NCAA = team control -(so under your scenario the arrow changes) Now B1 reaches in and slaps the ball away from A1, -loss of team control - technical foul.
Shoot two free throws - Under NCAA you would go to point of interuption which was - AP throw in - correct- so now the arrow has changed to B so it is Team B ball - if you give the Ball to Team A it would be because the Throw in was not completed.

[legend]

Originally Posted by dkmz17

One last question, as a guy that is frequently the timer or scorekeeper for games, will the officials signal the table that the throw in never ended and the AP arrow should not change?

This would be something that the "R" should communicate to the table I.E. the timekeeper during his pregame table visit. However one of the 3 should give some eye contact and let you know which way the ap should be going. If your not sure on the next DEAD ball buzz them over and make sure its correct.

[Jimgolf]

The AP throw-in that never ends ... Sounds like a Twilight Zone episode.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, let me try it this way. In the beginning of the game before the AP arrow is set we jump the ball. Beep, before the toss we got a violation. Team A receives possesion of the ball. Once the ball becomes live, the arrow is pointed to Team B. Now, let's say for argument sake that before the ball became live, we had a kick ball violation on Team B. AP arrow not set. Who gets the arrow now? Still, team B because A gets the ball from the violation of the jump.

That maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on this or any other forum.

"Beep, before the toss we got a violation."

Please explain exactly what violation can occur before the ball becomes live to start the game.

"Now, let's say for argument sake that before the ball became live, we had a kick ball violation on Team B."

Please explain exactly how can we have a kicked ball before the ball becomes live.

Once again, we're all dumber from having read an OS post.

[BktBallRef]

I was so stunned by the stupidity of OS' post above that I replied without readibng the other responses. I'm so glad that others recognized the stupidity as quickly as I did>

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That maybe the stupidest post I've ever read on this or any other forum.

"Beep, before the toss we got a violation."

Please explain exactly what violation can occur before the ball becomes live to start the game.

nfhs 6.3.2

When the referee is ready and until the ball is tossed, nonjumpers shall not:
a. Move onto the center restraining circle
b. Change positions around the center restraining circle

nfhs 6.2

The ball becomes live when
a. On a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee's hand(s)

NCAA 6.4.8 and 6.1.4a similar

Just sayin

[OHBBREF]

OS disapeared?
Was he blinded by the rules!!!!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

nfhs 6.3.2

When the referee is ready and until the ball is tossed, nonjumpers shall not:
a. Move onto the center restraining circle

I actually called this in a HS playoff game last season. Player actually stepped through the circle to get to his spot on the other side.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I actually called this in a HS playoff game last season. Player actually stepped through the circle to get to his spot on the other side.

that's not the same, though, as stepping "onto" the restraining circle.

I'm intrigued by the concept that Dan puts up, that a violation can be committed before the ball is live. Is this the only case?