The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 09:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 74
Double number change

I got this question from a coach. I did not work this game.
Player A1 had 4 fouls and player A2 has 1 foul at the end of the 1st half.
A1 and A2 switch jerseys at the half.

A1 and A2 enter the game to start the second half.
What do you have?

Certainly, technical foul on a1 and a2.

Do you T the coach?
Do you toss the coach?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 10:13am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
A1 & A2 both get "T"s under R10-3-1. That's A1's fifth foul--> buh-bye.

If I know for sure that the coach told the players to switch numbers, I'd call a flagrant technical foul on the jerk. If I'm not sure, the head coach is still gonna get a direct "T" under R10-4. All players are bench personnel during the half, and the head coach is responsible for their behavior.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 10:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
A1 & A2 both get "T"s under R10-3-1. That's A1's fifth foul--> buh-bye.

If I know for sure that the coach told the players to switch numbers, I'd call a flagrant technical foul on the jerk. If I'm not sure, the head coach is still gonna get a direct "T" under R10-4. All players are bench personnel during the half, and the head coach is responsible for their behavior.
I agree with your penalties on the players, but wouldn't the head coach get 2 indirects?
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 10:30am
Ch1town
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Would both players be ejected for flagrants technicals regardless of how many player fouls they had accumulated?
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 10:42am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I agree with your penalties on the players, but wouldn't the head coach get 2 indirects?
A1 & A2 entered the game to start the second half. That's when the number switch was discovered. They're no longer bench personnel, they're players. The head coach no longer has the responsibility for their actions.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 10:47am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ch1town
Would both players be ejected for flagrants technicals regardless of how many player fouls they had accumulated?
Judgment call. I agree that you can certainly make up a good justification for flagrant technical fouls against both players in this particular case.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 10:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
A1 & A2 entered the game to start the second half. That's when the number switch was discovered. They're no longer bench personnel, they're players. The head coach no longer has the responsibility for their actions.
I'm just trying to figure out the justification for giving the HC anything. If the 2 players did it during halftime, they are considered bench personnel, so I would think the HC would get 2 indirect as a result. If they are discovered during the game, then how do we give the HC a T? (Granted, if we know for sure the HC had anything to do with it, I can see T, perhaps flagrant.)
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 11:01am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I'm just trying to figure out the justification for giving the HC anything. If the 2 players did it during halftime, they are considered bench personnel, so I would think the HC would get 2 indirect as a result. If they are discovered during the game, then how do we give the HC a T? (Granted, if we know for sure the HC had anything to do with it, I can see T, perhaps flagrant.)
The penalty for "T"s called under R10-3 doesn't include an indirect "T" on a head coach. I wouldn't give out anything under R10-1-2 because that would only be one team technical foul charged, and that isn't penalty enough for what the l'il sh!ts tried to do. They both committed an unsporting act, and both should be punished equally.

The language at the front of 10-4 is good enough for me....."The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behavior of....all other bench personnel." No way I'm letting him skate. If he didn't know what his players were trying to do, then he should have. The only question imo is whether he's gonna get a flagrant "T" or simply a direct "T".

Last edited by Jurassic Referee; Thu Jun 07, 2007 at 11:04am.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 11:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
The penalty for "T"s called under R10-3 doesn't include an indirect "T" on a head coach. I wouldn't give out anything under R10-1-2 because that would only be one team technical foul charged, and that isn't penalty enough for what the l'il sh!ts tried to do. They both committed an unsporting act, and both should be punished equally.

The language at the front of 10-4 is good enough for me....."The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behavior of....all other bench personnel." No way I'm letting him skate. If he didn't know what his players were trying to do, then he should have. The only question imo is whether he's gonna get a flagrant "T" or simply a direct "T".
That's why I'm asking - if you use 10-4, then aren't you calling the players bench personnel? If so, then the HC gets 2 indirects, one for each of the players. If you give the players the T's based on 10-3, then I'm not sure I can justify giving the coach another, unless I know for sure they had any direct involvement in changing the jerseys.
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 04:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 743
You can't just 'T' teammates for changing shirts? Can you? They have to become a player to activate the rule.
I'll go look at the rules later tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 04:44pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy
You can't just 'T' teammates for changing shirts? Can you? They have to become a player to activate the rule.
I'll go look at the rules later tonight.
According to the original post, Zooch, the shirt-switch was discovered when the teammates entered the game at the start of the second half. That would make them "players".
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 04:57pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
- if you use 10-4, then aren't you calling the players bench personnel? If so, then the HC gets 2 indirects, one for each of the players. If you give the players the T's based on 10-3, then I'm not sure I can justify giving the coach another, unless I know for sure they had any direct involvement in changing the jerseys.
The "bench personnel" did not commit their technical fouls during the half. Their technical fouls occurred when they entered the game and became players. No entry = no technical fouls.

If it will make you feel better(not that I really give a sh!t ), use R10-4-1 and say that the head coach committed an unsporting fall that falls into the open "includes but not limited to" category. Give him a regular ol' direct "T" just for being too damn stoopid to know what his players are doing. Or, if you feel sorry for him because you're a nice guy like that l'il Chuck fella that useta hang out here, then let him skate. It's a judgment call anyway on the head coach.

Remember.....contrary to what Old School preaches, the rules can be your friend!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 05:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 5,687
Ahh...I feel better now.
__________________
M&M's - The Official Candy of the Department of Redundancy Department.

(Used with permission.)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 05:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Or, if you feel sorry for him because you're a nice guy like that l'il Chuck fella that useta hang out here, then let him skate.
I miss that little guy, wonder what ever happened to him.

Any truth to the rumor he got chased up a tree by a cat and starved to death?
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 07, 2007, 05:47pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I miss that little guy, wonder what ever happened to him.

Any truth to the rumor he got chased up a tree by a cat and starved to death?
The last I heard he was still living under a bridge up around Springfield, and working as a doorstop.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blood / Number Change Larks Basketball 8 Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:11am
USC number 12 BigGref Football 6 Wed Jun 09, 2004 07:01pm
number? Snake~eyes Football 7 Wed Nov 05, 2003 06:14pm
Number change in book... paulis Basketball 21 Mon Jan 07, 2002 02:33pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:29pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1