Throw In Violation?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I agree you can Fumble the ball and go get it and pass it in bounds - however it can not be a pass.

Hmmm...

There's a case where A1 throws the ball in the direction of a teammate. the teammate isn't looking and moves away. A1 moves and recovers the ball after it hits the floor. The ruling is that this is a dribble.

Why wouldn't the same concept apply on the OP (except we couldn't call it a dribble, of course)?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Hmmm...

There's a case where A1 throws the ball in the direction of a teammate. the teammate isn't looking and moves away. A1 moves and recovers the ball after it hits the floor. The ruling is that this is a dribble.

Why wouldn't the same concept apply on the OP (except we couldn't call it a dribble, of course)?

Of course this is never a pass because as I mentioned a pass is defined as moving the ball from 1 player to another. No such thing as a "self pass", no such thing as a travel or dribble violation during a throw-in, it's all perfectly legal unless you violate by coming inbounds & stepping back out with or without the ball. The AR under discussion covers the second of these 2 cases.

There's really no need to bring in other rules, it's all self consistent IMO.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

... it's all self consistent IMO.

It's not even consistent with the NCAA rules. That is the point JR is making.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Then I can assume that it is safe to say that anybody who really has a good knowledge of the NFHS and NCAA rules realizes that A.R. 155 is poorly worded and only applies to the part where A1 steps inbounds. AND that is not a violation for A1 to release the ball along the endline on the out of bounds side of the endline and recover it before it touches a teammate out of bounds along the endline.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Then I can assume that it is safe to say that anybody who really has a good knowledge of the NFHS and NCAA rules realizes that A.R. 155 is poorly worded and only applies to the part where A1 steps inbounds. AND that is not a violation for A1 to release the ball along the endline on the out of bounds side of the endline and recover it before it touches a teammate out of bounds along the endline.

MTD, Sr.

Nope, the A.R. specifically says that the violation is for not throwing the pass TO A TEAMMATE as well as failing to pass the ball directly inbounds. The ruling part of the A.R. makes no mention of the player returning OOB after stepping inbounds.
The way it is written it is plain as day that that is what the NCAA is saying.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Nope, the A.R. specifically says that the violation is for not throwing the pass TO A TEAMMATE...

...is there any other type of pass?

Well, maybe a pass to an opponent, but an opponent is not allowed to go beyond the endline in this play.

Anxiously awaiting your reply.

(Although it really doesn't make a difference. :shrug: )

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

...is there any other type of pass?

Well, maybe a pass to an opponent, but an opponent is not allowed to go beyond the endline in this play.

Anxiously awaiting your reply.

(Although it really doesn't make a difference. :shrug: )

1. I think that the NCAA A.R. is stupid and don't agree with it.
2. The NCAA A.R. is what carries the weight, not my opinion, not your's, not JR's.
3. I can only read what the NCAA wrote and it quite clearly says what the violation is for. If you don't like it, you will have to take up the issue with whomever wrote the A.R.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Then I can assume that it is safe to say that anybody who really has a good knowledge of the NFHS and NCAA rules realizes that A.R. 155 is poorly worded and only applies to the part where A1 steps inbounds. AND that is not a violation for A1 to release the ball along the endline on the out of bounds side of the endline and recover it before it touches a teammate out of bounds along the endline.

MTD, Sr.

Yes. Good assumption.

[Nevadaref]

Ok, in that case you are going to have to help me understand your position better.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Then I can assume that it is safe to say that anybody who really has a good knowledge of the NFHS and NCAA rules realizes that A.R. 155 is poorly worded and only applies to the part where A1 steps inbounds.

Are you saying that you agree that stepping inbounds while not holding the ball during an endline throw-in and then going back OOB and touching the ball again is a violation? What rule is being broken?

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

AND that is not a violation for A1 to release the ball along the endline on the out of bounds side of the endline and recover it before it touches a teammate out of bounds along the endline.

While I concur that this action SHOULD not be a violation, the NCAA A.R. clearly states that it is (if the release was a pass and not a fumble). Are you agreeing with MTD that this IS not a violation or are you saying that the A.R. is silly and it SHOULD not be a violation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Ok, in that case you are going to have to help me understand your position better.

I'm saying that the NCAA AR has got absolutely nothing to do with the play being discussed in the original post. The AR is neither relevant or germane. Apples and horse doodoo. The play in the original post is legal, under both NCAA and NFHS rules. Iow I don't agree with you that the AR has any relation at all with regards to the legality of what happened in the original post.

The AR discusses a unique situation--i.e. the thrower stepping in bounds and then back OOB while the ball is loose OOB- and then gives a ruling on that unique situation without really giving any reason why that particular unique situation is a violation. See Dan's post #4. MTD explained it further.

Quite simply, imo you're trying to apply an AR that isn't applicable. Understand now?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm saying that the NCAA AR has got absolutely nothing to do with the play being discussed in the original post. The AR is neither relevant or germane. Apples and horse doodoo. The play in the original post is legal, under both NCAA and NFHS rules. Iow I don't agree with you that the AR has any relation at all with regards to the legality of what happened in the original post.

The AR discusses a unique situation--i.e. the thrower stepping in bounds and then back OOB while the ball is loose OOB- and then gives a ruling on that unique situation without really giving any reason why that particular unique situation is a violation. See Dan's post #4. MTD explained it further.

Quite simply, imo you're trying to apply an AR that isn't applicable. Understand now?

So for you the single controlling element is that the thrower stepped inbounds and then returned OOB before making the throw-in pass. Interesting take. I don't agree with it, but it is interesting.

As for Dan's post #4, where can I find the provision that says that the thrower cannot step inbounds WITHOUT THE BALL and then return OOB to make a throw-in pass? As far as I know that isn't a rule.

What is your take on these two plays? Is either one a violation?

a) A1 and A2 are both OOB during a throw-in following a made goal and A1 has with the ball. A1 passes the ball to A2 and then A1 steps inbounds. A2 is unable to find an open teammate, so A1 returns OOB and A2 passes the ball back to him and A1 is able to release the ball on a throw-in pass directly into the court prior to the expiration of the five second count.

b) Following a made goal A1 has the ball OOB for the throw-in. A1 places the ball down on the floor OOB and then runs inbounds. He sees that no teammate is going for the ball, so he returns OOB, picks up the ball and completes a throw-in pass in under five seconds.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It's not even consistent with the NCAA rules. That is the point JR is making.

JR? Two points on JR:

1. Screw him

2. He's referencing NFHS rules, not NCAA rules

oh yeah, a third point

3. Screw him

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

JR? Two points on JR:

1. Screw him

2. He's referencing NFHS rules, not NCAA rules

oh yeah, a third point

3. Screw him

1)

2) Yeah, and Imo the NCAA AR isn't relevant or germane, and it doesn't say what Nevada thinks that it says anyway. Fwiw, I agree with MTD Sr.

3) Have you ever thought of having a short one instead?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fwiw, I agree with MTD Sr.

What exactly of MTD's do you agree with? What he wrote in post #7 or post #31? Could you quote the specific part?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What exactly of MTD's do you agree with? What he wrote in post #7 or post #31? Could you quote the specific part?

Post #31.