Throw In Violation?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There has been some debate about this play on this forum before. JR and I can see no reason why the play is not perfectly legal under NFHS rules. However, there is an NCAA A.R. which states that this is a violation.

from NCAA BR-133:

A.R. 155.

After a score by Team B, A1 has disposal of the ball for a throw-in. A1 starts a throw-in to A2 but notices that A2 is defensively covered. While losing his/her balance, A1 passes the ball along the endline. A1’s forward momentum carries him/her onto the playing court. A1 leaves the playing court, returns out-of-bounds and recovers the ball along the endline. Is this legal? RULING: No. A1 failed to pass the ball directly into the playing court, nor did A1 pass the ball along the endline to a teammate. When A1 touches the ball, he/she has violated the throw-in provisions.

Wrong.

As long as A1 (in the OP's play) did not come inbounds after releasing the ball she has violated nothing under ncaa rules. AR 155 is meant to show that the inbounder has violated when he steps inbounds and steps back out to recover the ball behind the endline. If A1 had stayed beyond the endline there would be no violation, just as under NFHS. This is because under both rules sets travel rules are not in effect during throw-ins, ever.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Wrong.

As long as A1 (in the OP's play) did not come inbounds after releasing the ball she has violated nothing under ncaa rules. AR 155 is meant to show that the inbounder has violated when he steps inbounds and steps back out to recover the ball behind the endline. If A1 had stayed beyond the endline there would be no violation, just as under NFHS. This is because under both rules sets travel rules are not in effect during throw-ins, ever.

I don't agree with you, Dan.

The A.R. specifically states two reasons for calling a violation. Leaving the designated spot or the area behind the endline is not one of them. The fact that the thrower went inbounds and then came back out seems to be of no consequence to the ruling at all. The controlling action that the NCAA is focusing on seems to be that A1 threw a pass.

I believe that the following play would not be a violation under NCAA rules.
Team B scores a goal. A1 picks up the ball and steps OOB. A1 places the ball down on the floor OOB and then steps into the court. A2 runs OOB near the ball but decides not to pick it up, so A1 returns OOB and picks up the ball and completes the throw-in prior to the expiration of the alloted five seconds.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I don't agree with you, Dan.

The A.R. specifically states two reasons for calling a violation. Leaving the designated spot or the area behind the endline is not one of them. The fact that the thrower went inbounds and then came back out seems to be of no consequence to the ruling at all. The controlling action that the NCAA is focusing on seems to be that A1 threw a pass.

I believe that the following play would not be a violation under NCAA rules.
Team B scores a goal. A1 picks up the ball and steps OOB. A1 places the ball down on the floor OOB and then steps into the court. A2 runs OOB near the ball but decides not to pick it up, so A1 returns OOB and picks up the ball and completes the throw-in prior to the expiration of the alloted five seconds.

So far we've discussed 3 different plays. The OP's play, the AR and now your new play.

Only the AR play is illegal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The wording of A.R. 155's RULING is poor. Dan is correct that A1 cannot retouch the ball because A1 stepped onto the playing court and that is the ONLY reason a violation has occured in A.R. 155. The thing to remember in A.R. 155, as well as in the Original Post, is that Team A's throw-in is a throw-in after a score by Team B. One must remember that this throw-in has different that a designated throw-in.

Keeping with the Original Post, somethings apply whether the throw-in is after a score (or awarded points) or a designated spot throw-in. 1) There is no player control during a throw-in. 2) There is no team control (NFHS) and there is team control (NCAA). But the key to this play is that there is no player control during a throw-in, therefore dribbling does not occur during a throw-in meaning that a player can "pass" the ball to himself as in the case of the play being discussed.

And finally, once again, whoever wrote the RULING A.R. 155, did not bother to read NCAA R7-S5-A8, nor did he bother to apply it correctly.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The wording of A.R. 155's RULING is poor. Dan is correct that A1 cannot retouch the ball because A1 stepped onto the playing court and that is the ONLY reason a violation has occured in A.R. 155.

Oh, wait.

Can I change my vote?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The wording of A.R. 155's RULING is poor. Dan is correct that A1 cannot retouch the ball because A1 stepped onto the playing court and that is the ONLY reason a violation has occured in A.R. 155. The thing to remember in A.R. 155, as well as in the Original Post, is that Team A's throw-in is a throw-in after a score by Team B. One must remember that this throw-in has different that a designated throw-in.

Mark
I have to disagree completely with you here. The AR 155 specifically states after a basket by team B - and it is specifiacally a part of Rule 7 - S5-A8, a. which states: Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw in or may pass the ball along the end line to a team mate who is also out of bounds..

I can not see how you come to your conclusion.
I may be a little slow today help me out

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Mark
I have to disagree completely with you here. The AR 155 specifically states after a basket by team B - and it is specifiacally a part of Rule 7 - S5-A8, a. which states: Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw in or may pass the ball along the end line to a team mate who is also out of bounds..

I can not see how you come to your conclusion.
I may be a little slow today help me out

I'm not MTD but I'll help you out.

The part that I left underlined is to differentiate between a pass to a team mate inbounds or OOB beyond the endline. It is not there to say that a pass *must* be only to a team mate when it's made beyond the endline (that's kind of redundant btw, since a pass by definition is to a team mate). And it does not invalidate the 1 thing we agree on, that no travel or dribble rules apply during the throw-in.

So...

1. You can pass the ball inbounds or OOB beyond the endline. If it goes inbounds you cannot be the first to touch.

2. You cannot violate travel or illegal dribble rules (ie so-called "self pass" as in the OP's play allowed)

3. You cannnot "pass" the ball, come in bounds the go back out & retrieve the ball in this case. Per the AR under discussion.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Mark
I can not see how you come to your conclusion.
I may be a little slow today help me out

Allow me. See if you can find an NCAA or NFHS rule anywhere that says that it's a violation for the thrower on a non-designated spot throw-in to fumble the ball along the endline and then go and get it. That's what's happening in the play being discussed. AR155 simply isn't relevant.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The fact that the thrower went inbounds and then came back out seems to be of no consequence to the ruling at all.

Then why is it included in the play?

That's twice today you've screwed the pooch.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's twice today you've screwed the pooch.

HEY!! That's illegal in most states...

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

HEY!! That's illegal in most states...

You mean you can't do it more than once?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You mean you can't do it more than once?

[dblref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You mean you can't do it more than once?

Only if you are a Cubbies fan.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

HEY!! That's illegal in most states...

But not all states ......

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Wrong.

This is because under both rules sets travel rules are not in effect during throw-ins, ever.

Just a suggestion I would leave the term traveling out of any explaination regarding a throw-in.
There is no such thing as Traveling on a throw-in!