Pick / Charge

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And you say these "happen all the time?" Not in my experience. Most offensive players have learned to look for it.

They happen often enough for the rules to protect players *without* the
ball in the same circumstance.... The rules also offer protection (time and distance) for players without the ball even if the screener is right in his line of sight. I would say the reason they don't happen more often is the *defenders* know the offensive player receiving a pass can often neither see them or avoid them. They understand if they step in front of receiver, moving at speed, and turning his head to see the ball (so he can catch it) there will likely be a violent collision. The defender doesn't want to get a head full of teeth (or a mouthful
of face).

[Adam]

The rule is more specifically designed to protect defensive players from blind screens; but the screening principals apply to all players without the ball. The rules assume a player with the ball knows both where he is heading and who is in his way. This also applies to a player who knows he is about to receive the ball.
You said it happens "all the time." It doesn't. Frankly, I haven't witnessed the original scenario more than a couple times in my career. It's rare, to be honest. I'd say it's rare because offensive players don't tend to run blind.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You said it happens "all the time." It doesn't. Frankly, I haven't witnessed the original scenario more than a couple times in my career. It's rare, to be honest. I'd say it's rare because offensive players don't tend to run blind.

Really?

Utah vs Golden State last night:

First half:

Kirilenko moving without the ball on the left side of the lane, pass from the
left corner forces him to look away from the hoop, player steps in on his
blind side just after the catch, collision before a full step, block called.

Oukur, moving without the ball on the left side of the lane, pass from the
left wing forces him to look away from the hoop, Ellis steps in on his
blind side just after the catch, collision before a full step, charge called.

Second half:

Boozer running near the top of the key without the ball, pass comes from back court forces him to look away from the hoop, Biedrins steps in, near
instantaneous contact, travel called (couldn't see the steps because of the
camera angle, but as mentioned earlier in this thread officials sometimes
call a travel in this case when they are not sure).

The Boozer play was exactly like the original examples, the other two
had the same essential elements: offensive player *must* look away from
his path to catch a pass and contact occurs immediately. While three of
these in the same game might be unusual, seeing only two in your entire
career is a bit hard to believe: I was born at night, but I wasn't born
last night.

[JRutledge]

NBA.......High School Game.........NCAA game.......not quite the same thing.

I would bet some money that the rules are not the same as it relates to all these issues.

Pro players do all kinds of things to draw fouls or to stop players from movement. They scout teams a lot more and they are much more knowledgeable about the game as a whole.

So if you have an example that took place in the NCAA Tournament, I might go with you there. If all you have is some NBA scenario which none of us here do or experience and most do not even watch, then that is not going to fly.

Peace

[Adam]

My point was simply that it doesn't happen "all the time." I'd go so far as to say it's rare for the situation in the OP to occur in organized ball. That it happened once in an NBA playoff game doesn't change that.

FWIW, I sympathize with thinking some rules need changed. I just don't think this is one.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

NBA.......High School Game.........NCAA game.......not quite the same thing.

Peace

I know. He said he's only seen this type of play twice in his career. It occurred three times in one nationally televised game last night (I'm not cherry picking one game from many months or years ago, and I can't find any NCAA or HS games on the tube right now).

I'm not saying anything about if the calls were right, wrong, etc. Or anything
about the NBA vs NCAA vs HS rules. There was also the inference that these
kind of bang bang collisions of a caught pass only happen when the receiver
lacks experience....these are all near All-Star NBA players that got whacked
when they turned their heads to catch a pass.

As someone said to me: it's called basketball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

I know. He said he's only seen this type of play twice in his career. It occurred three times in one nationally televised game last night (I'm not cherry picking one game from many months or years ago, and I can't find any NCAA or HS games on the tube right now).

I'm not saying anything about if the calls were right, wrong, etc. Or anything
about the NBA vs NCAA vs HS rules. There was also the inference that these
kind of bang bang collisions of a caught pass only happen when the receiver
lacks experience....these are all near All-Star NBA players that got whacked
when they turned their heads to catch a pass.

As someone said to me: it's called basketball.

No, it didn't happen three times. Based on your post, it happened once last night. And I never inferred they only happen with inexperienced receivers. I said they dont' happen more often because most basketball players don't run blindly down the court; and most passers don't throw the ball over their teammates heads when there's a defender down there.

[ColdShot]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No, it didn't happen three times. Based on your post, it happened once last night. And I never inferred they only happen with inexperienced receivers. I said they dont' happen more often because most basketball players don't run blindly down the court; and most passers don't throw the ball over their teammates heads when there's a defender down there.

I guess you are right. The exact location of passer, receiver, and defender
wasn't exactly the same as the original example. In respect to the rule, and in regards to time, space, and line of sight required to field the pass, they were all the same. In each case the receiver must look away from his path to catch the pass, the defender moves into position as the receiver looks away and while the receiver is still moving without the ball (i.e. screening principles apply), the catch is made and contact occurs immediately (i.e. player control principles apply at the instant of contact). The receiver has no chance to see the defender or to avoid contact.

And yes, the passers lead the receivers into potential contact situations.
This same type of "rare" play occurred at least once in the Suns vs Spurs game last night. I think the passer was Nash.

We can agree to disagree if it's a good rule or not, but don't ask me to believe this type of play is "rare". Indeed, in my experience, there are fewer
blind screens at speed off the ball than on (defenders are focused on defending the player with the ball, and screener screen around the ball). Nonetheless, there is specific language in the rules to protect players without the ball in the SAME circumstance. All I'm saying is that the same rules that apply to the player a .1 of a second before he catches a pass (speed, distance, blind screen) should apply in the .1 of a second after he catches a pass. The way the rules read, and the way every respondent here posted (thanks to all for the clarifications), they don't.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

I know. He said he's only seen this type of play twice in his career. It occurred three times in one nationally televised game last night (I'm not cherry picking one game from many months or years ago, and I can't find any NCAA or HS games on the tube right now).

I'm not saying anything about if the calls were right, wrong, etc. Or anything
about the NBA vs NCAA vs HS rules. There was also the inference that these
kind of bang bang collisions of a caught pass only happen when the receiver
lacks experience....these are all near All-Star NBA players that got whacked
when they turned their heads to catch a pass.

As someone said to me: it's called basketball.

Well it sounds to me like you are trying to make an easy situation very complicated. For one thing what is considered a blind screen can be very subjective. Every player has a right to a place on the floor and if someone is run over, someone that is standing there, then a foul is not likely to go to the person setting a "screen." Now if you cannot decide what to call, either you need to get more in the book or just use some common sense. But there is no requirement for a player to have a place to land when they are receiving a pass unless the defender purposely bodied up the offensive player. At some point you have to realize what the rulebook is trying to suggest and stop trying to make every situation into a black and white situation.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ColdShot

Really?

Utah vs Golden State last night:

First half:

Kirilenko moving without the ball on the left side of the lane, pass from the
left corner forces him to look away from the hoop, player steps in on his
blind side just after the catch, collision before a full step, block called.

Oukur, moving without the ball on the left side of the lane, pass from the
left wing forces him to look away from the hoop, Ellis steps in on his
blind side just after the catch, collision before a full step, charge called.

Second half:

Boozer running near the top of the key without the ball, pass comes from back court forces him to look away from the hoop, Biedrins steps in, near
instantaneous contact, travel called (couldn't see the steps because of the
camera angle, but as mentioned earlier in this thread officials sometimes
call a travel in this case when they are not sure).

The Boozer play was exactly like the original examples, the other two
had the same essential elements: offensive player *must* look away from
his path to catch a pass and contact occurs immediately. While three of
these in the same game might be unusual, seeing only two in your entire
career is a bit hard to believe: I was born at night, but I wasn't born
last night.

NBA rules do NOT equate to college or high school basketball. Ever! NBA rules are completely different than NFHS or NCAA rules. The officiating philosophies are completely different also.

You might not have been born last night, but you sureasheck are awfully slow to pick up the concepts of what people have been trying to explain to you. Believe it or not, what you've been told so far are the rules for high school and college basketball. If you don't choose to believe what you're being told, that's unfortunate. If you don't like the rule, that's unfortunate also. Meanwhile, it doesn't change reality.