Coach takes offense.......

[DrakeM]

Dan,
I don't really know if he knew my partner well. As I said in my post, this guy has won several State titles and a National Championship. My feeling was he was trying to make sure everybody knew he was "the Man". It is only the second time I've had this school, and the first time, he was not a
problem. He had been complaining the entire game about one thing or another.
In fact my partner mentioned to me that he had never seen this coach complain so much.
As I said, final score was 71-48 for his team, we were not even in the 1 and 1 in the first half. There was only 1 foul in the third quarter (player control against the VISITING team), and the second half ended with 3 team fouls for his squad, 4 for the other team.
We let our share of incidental contact go, but there were no train wreck that didn't get called. In fact no train wrecks period!
I find it ironic, that in my neck of the woods, I have had a rep. for being quick on the "t". (IMHO, unjustified, but I can always work harder on conflict resolution).
And one time I show some restraint in a situation where CLEARLY I would have been justified in assessing a "T", I get a coach that acts like that.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Second, I would never refer to the score as an explanation for a call/no-call. Better just to re-affirm your call, "It wasn't a travel." If you want to try to be lighthearted about it, you might add, "And you guys don't need any extra help tonight." But as this example clearly points out, admitting that you "referee the score" will only cause bad feelings (even tho every official does it at one point or another).

The sentence I have used that has worked in this situation is, "It's not like I'm taking the game away from you." This admits nothing, and points up the attitude of the coach or player who is complaining.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by devdog69
She walks over to me and sticks her hand out saying "thanks, good game". I guess it caught me off guard, but I shook her hand. Only she squeezed as hard as she could and then threw my hand away violently (ya had to be there), turned and stomped away.
[Edited by devdog69 on Dec 14th, 2001 at 09:05 AM]

First, I would not say you were wrong to shake hands - the appearance of you standing there ignoring an extended hand could also be detrimental to you. It is at least something that you would need to consider in advance how to handle without looking unprofessional and inconsiderate, which you had not done, so you had no choice but to be gracious. However, she put you in the position of shaking her hand or looking stupid, and when you decided to shake her hand, she proceeds to try to make you look stupid anyway. Making a public attempt to himiliate a ref would be an auto-T for me. I would not only have no problem with you giving the T, I would expect it. Some things you cannot let go, and for me, this is way over the line.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

First, I would not say you were wrong to shake hands - the appearance of you standing there ignoring an extended hand could also be detrimental to you. It is at least something that you would need to consider in advance how to handle without looking unprofessional and inconsiderate, which you had not done, so you had no choice but to be gracious. However, she put you in the position of shaking her hand or looking stupid, and when you decided to shake her hand, she proceeds to try to make you look stupid anyway. Making a public attempt to himiliate a ref would be an auto-T for me. I would not only have no problem with you giving the T, I would expect it. Some things you cannot let go, and for me, this is way over the line.

I do not think refusing to shake a player's hand on the
floor is inconsiderate or ungracious. It's the thing to
do. You want to shake my hand then chase me down as I'm
running to the lockers after the game & do it in private.

[Kelly Kinghorn]

Drake,

FWIW, the coach in question (I know very well who he is) does things like this. He can be great one game and be a total jerk the next. I think you should have whacked him. He could be taken down a couple of notches. His tape comment was priceless. I would have asked him how he will defend his actions that are clearly represented on the tape. You know Jerry would back you on it.

Don't take their crap.

See ya soon.

[daves]

Good morning,

I'm of the "less said the better" school. I try not to get into debates with players or coaches over calls. If a player wants to ask a question respectfully about a call, yes I will give them an explanation. If they want to debate about how wrong I am, then I'm out of there. I'll try not to let anyone know verbally that I'm officiating to the score, even though I might be.

As far as the other situation with the girl and the handshake. Yes, shake her hand. Otherwise you may appear rude. If she does what she did, Whack her. If you do, in that situation it is also an indirect T on the coach. She became bench personnel when you notified the coach of the DQ. Now you don't have to deal with a coach up and in your face. He now has to follow the bench decorum rule(make sure you tell him).

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[QUOTEI do not think refusing to shake a player's hand on the floor is inconsiderate or ungracious. It's the thing to do. You want to shake my hand then chase me down as I'm running to the lockers after the game & do it in private.

I am saying that if dev had not thought out an appropriate response to a player who offers her hand, he risks looking stupid by standing there staring at it and not acknowledging it. It is the appearance that I am referring to, not that the ref is being ungracious or inconsiderate. It can have the affect of undermining your authority. But you can't throw out a T to a player who wants to shake your hand. And since you aren't leaving the floor in the situation dev outlined, running away quickly is not an option. So shaking the hand may have put him at risk for the follow on showmanship, but it was the player's next actions that caused the problem. If they choose to use an act of graciousness as a device to show you up, WHACK!!!

[devdog69]

Thanks for the input and support all. The bad thing about it was I don't think anyone else even noticed it, or at least few, if any. The AD even brushed it off when I told him, saying I'm sure she didn't mean it. Well, I knew she did. I am glad I didn't give her the technical, especially since we have to send in reports for them. But, I am a regular at this school and she will know how thin her ice is before we tip the next one. Of course, I mean with her sportsmanship, I would not call the fouls on/against her any different during play, just will let her know that such incidents will not be tolerated.

[Brad]

That's why you don't announce the type of foul when you report to the table.

Since when? What states use this mechanic???

Curious...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

I am saying that if dev had not thought out an appropriate response to a player who offers her hand, he risks looking stupid by standing there staring at it and not acknowledging it. It is the appearance that I am referring to, not that the ref is being ungracious or inconsiderate. It can have the affect of undermining your authority. But you can't throw out a T to a player who wants to shake your hand. And since you aren't leaving the floor in the situation dev outlined, running away quickly is not an option. So shaking the hand may have put him at risk for the follow on showmanship, but it was the player's next actions that caused the problem. If they choose to use an act of graciousness as a device to show you up, WHACK!!!

Not that I want to beat this to death but before or after
a game I'll shake anybody's hand who offers me theirs.
During the game if a player or coach offers me his hand to
shake I'll tell them no & walk away. I may or may not
smile as I shake my head no, depending on how I feel.
That's *my* pre-thought out appropriate response to this
type of thing. For the very few times a hand is offered I
might look like a jerk. But I'll be looking like an
impartial jerk, and a player will never do to me what
happened to our friend here.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Brad

Since when? What states use this mechanic???

Curious...

Illinois, for one. The key word being "announce." We just give one of the approved signals, with no words.

IOW, "White, 32," ,demonstrate signal, "two shots."

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Illinois, for one. The key word being "announce." We just give one of the approved signals, with no words.

Thanks, Bob. That was exactly my point. I'm sorry if I was unclear, Brad. I believe the correct mechanic is to give a signal, but not to verbalize it. So you're not going to the table and saying "push, block, hack, on the arm" or anything at all. Again, I apologize for not making that clearer.

originally posted by devdog
I would not call the fouls on/against her any different during play, just will let her know that such incidents will not be tolerated.

With all due respect, dev, if you wanted to let her know that you wouldn't tolerate it, then you should've called the T. Because what you just showed her was that you did tolerate it. Again, it's just my opinion, but no official should accept that kind of disrespect on the court from a player.

chuck

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Dan,
As I said in my post, this guy has won several State titles and a National Championship.

He didn't win anything. His players did. He didn't score a single point or make a single steal or block.

My recommendation is just to puke on his shoes and be done with it.

BTW - I have officiated tournament games involving the Oregon City, OR girls team. They were the number one team in the nation for a few years and their coach at the time, Brad Smith, was and still is one of the absolute best coaches to have in your game. If he has a complaint, it's really in the form of a question, he waits until a break to ask and it's almost always about a rule interpretation. I can't recall him ever questioning a judgement call unless the official was out of position, and then he still does it in a respectful manner.

I guess my point is, maybe part of why the really top coaches get that way is their attitude during games.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by LarryS
Think I would have handled the no-calls the same way, and probably said the same thing. Glad I read the post here, now I can avoid a problem.

I would also advise against putting your hand on anyone. The only time I have ever put a hand on a player or coach was two nights ago. Hustling toward my favorit spot to report a foul, glanced back to double check the players number and had another girl step right in my path. Had to grab her to keep from knocking her over and tripping over her. We almost ended up in a heap, I started to pretend we were dancing but figured that would not look appropriate.

Without a doubt the funniest thing I have ever seen a referee do was my partner a few years ago refereeing an Under 23 Women's game. The two teams had just gotten the lycra bodysuits that have become popular in Australia - and as you can imagine, many of the players were quite easy on the eyes.

Anyway, my partner calls a push on Red 12, walks to the bench to make the call, and does the push signal to his left hand side - without looking. Of course there is a player standing right next to him - just outside his line of sight.

I'm sure you can imagine where he planted his two open hands! He went bright red and just stood there for 60 seconds staring at his hands, and not quite sure what to do. The player took it very well, and we all had a good laugh about it.

The moral: look before you do any hand signals!

[bigwhistle]

Duane,

Where did your partner put his hands?