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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 07, 2007, 01:11pm
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A new low in coaches questions

I was working some club ball on Saturday...game just ended, the team with the two huge players wins...I take a bathroom break before the next game starts.

I return and the coach for the losing team is talking with my less experienced partner.

The partner throws me under the bus by saying, "Why not ask him to see what he thinks?" Great.

Coach: You know about the principle of verticality right?

Me: I have a pretty good idea about it.

Coach: The rule book says it is a foul if another player enters your vertical space.

Me: No, it's a foul if there is contact.

Coach: There doesn't have to be contact.

Me: Coach, you can't have a foul without contact.

I know I shouldn't but I can't help myself, so I grab my rulebook, go to definitions and show him FOUL.

Coach: But that's about fouls, that has nothing to do with verticality! Show me the verticality rule.

I am in disbelief, but I'm on a roll now so I flip to verticality and tell him to pay close attention to Art. 5 and 6 and the use of the words CONTACT and FOUL.

He's holding his ground, but look at Art. 3, that's why it's a FOUL.

I'm literally laughing in his face know.

He comes back with, "I used to officiate college basketball so I know the rules!"

I just said, "Well, I can see why you USED to."
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 01:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
He comes back with, "I used to officiate college basketball so I know the rules!"

I just said, "Well, I can see why you USED to."
Coach, you mispronounced "intramural."
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 01:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Coach, you mispronounced "intramural."
Most of the intramural refs I've worked with (at least, the ones I've trained) at least know that you need contact in order to have a personal foul.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
I just said, "Well, I can see why you USED to."
That's too funny I'm going to have to use that one. I had a wreck player challenging my no call kicked ball last week.
He says "I'm a certified varsity official, I know the rules"!!
So I tell him "great but you aren't officiating THIS ballgame, sir".

He kept on & on so by the 2nd half he was a spectator in the stands with his pretty girlfriend. Come to find out he did indeed take the test, but only scored high enough for trainee status.



BTW, mere contact does not constitue a foul.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
Me: Coach, you can't have a foul without contact.
Erhm, that's not really true, let's see if I remember this (I learnt this a few weeks ago).
"Not every foul is a contact but every contact is a foul. How ever due to the game flow and spirit of the game we can not call every foul."
Something like that,
you can have a foul without contact ( A Technical is still a foul, and it never (in fiba at least) involves contact.
But since you can't touch another player without entering their cylinder, every contact is a foul.

That doesn't change the intelligence of the coach though
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:13pm
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I worked a tournament last summer where teams were from all over the country. Well one of the teams was from Wisconsin who tried to question my ability and stated that he was an official himself. I then told him, "I have worked college games in Wisconsin." Which he tried to tell me that I needed a license to do so (For the record, you never need a license to work in a particular state for college basketball). This conversation took place after the Wisconsin team lost and he approached me on the court. I basically laughed in the guys face and he walked away.

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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
Erhm, that's not really true, let's see if I remember this (I learnt this a few weeks ago).
"Not every foul is a contact but every contact is a foul. How ever due to the game flow and spirit of the game we can not call every foul."
Something like that,
you can have a foul without contact ( A Technical is still a foul, and it never (in fiba at least) involves contact.
But since you can't touch another player without entering their cylinder, every contact is a foul.

That doesn't change the intelligence of the coach though
Huh????

He is not talking about technical fouls. He is talking about fouls that are involved during play. You cannot rule on verticality and call a foul unless there is contact.

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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:20pm
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I think the discussion here has been pretty obviously trended towards personal fouls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
"Not every foul is a contact but every contact is a foul."
Most people (myself included) would switch that around - not all contact is a foul, but every [personal] foul involves contact.


Quote:
"How ever due to the game flow and spirit of the game we can not call every foul."
See above. If it's enough contact to warrant a foul (gives an advantage/disadvantage), then it's a foul and you should call it.

Quote:
That doesn't change the intelligence of the coach though
Well, at least some things are the same on both sides of the pond.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 02:24pm
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That was my favorite part about AAU/Weekend tournament basketball. EVERY coach was an official...or so they said.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
Erhm, that's not really true, let's see if I remember this (I learnt this a few weeks ago).
"Not every foul is a contact but every contact is a foul. How ever due to the game flow and spirit of the game we can not call every foul."
Something like that,
you can have a foul without contact ( A Technical is still a foul, and it never (in fiba at least) involves contact.
But since you can't touch another player without entering their cylinder, every contact is a foul.
Not at all, it's exactly the other way round. Contact is, by itself, not a foul. The cylinders may touch each other, without having a foul. During a screen there is frequently contact, but many screens (the majority, I'd say) are not fouls. Think to rebounds: there is contact, when two or more players are trying to get at the ball; how many rebounding situations end with a foul call?

A dribbler who stops just when contacting the defender, without displacing him/her, does not commit a foul, in general. A defender who contacts the dribbler while maintaining LGP does not commit a foul.

A contact which might be a foul can be disregarded if it doesn't cause either an advantage to the responsible player or a disadvantage to the non responsible player. Such a decision must take into account the game flow and the spirit of the rules.

Technical fouls are a different matter, as they never involve contact (for FIBA rules), but rather unsporting behavior or administrative infractions.

Just to point out the current interpretation, as some of our American friends don't have so high an opinion about FIBA basketball.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 05:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
That was my favorite part about AAU/Weekend tournament basketball. EVERY coach was an official...or so they said.
You always know you're in for it when they make sure you know they're also an official back home. They usually wear their pants to high and exaggerate what level they work.
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Old Mon May 07, 2007, 06:53pm
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy
Just to point out the current interpretation, as some of our American friends don't have so high an opinion about FIBA basketball.
Really??? Here??? On this board??? You're kidding!!!
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Old Tue May 08, 2007, 04:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Really??? Here??? On this board??? You're kidding!!!
Did I mention you?

Regarding the matter under discussion, is it so different from your point of view? Actually, there are still instructors who think that every contact is a foul, they are still eons ago when basketball was a no-contact game. This is not the way the main instructors all over the FIBA world teach about fouls.
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Old Tue May 08, 2007, 09:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy
Did I mention you?

Regarding the matter under discussion, is it so different from your point of view?
Nope.
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