Coach and Player Confrontation

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Wrong. It's not my job, I'm not qualified, nor am I getting paid enough to ascertain a player's emotional state.
I'm not advocating calling a T on this play necessarily. I am saying that I never consider the player's feelings, self-esteem, emotions, or spiritual status when I decide whether or not to issue a technical foul.

No one is asking you to do a psychological evaluation of the players either. Our game is a highly emotional game, and sometimes emotions gets the best of us. No one is amuned. It's also not a life and death situation either, it's a kid for heavons sake, our future. Seeing a kid with tears in his eyes and getting ready to attack his coach. I don't think that's the time to start throwing technicals. In fact, might not be a bad idea to get involve here, for everybody's sake.

[JRutledge]

LOL!!!!

I keep reading and I have now heard or read it all.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

LOL!!!!

I keep reading and I have now heard or read it all.

Peace

Somehow, I doubt it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Then you are half an official and you have a lot to learn about the profession you are in. The world doesn't need more robot thinking decision makers. No one is asking you to do a psychological evaluation of the players either, dial that back a little, would you please. The game is a highly emotional game, and sometimes emotions gets the best of us. No one is immune. It's also not a life and death situation either, it's a kid for heaven's sake, our future. Seeing a kid with tears in his eyes and getting ready to attack his coach. I don't think that's the time to start throwing technicals. In fact, might not be a bad idea to get involve here, for everybody's sake.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I'm not advocating calling a technical here unless it escalates quite a bit higher. What I am saying is that when I decide whether to issue a technical foul, I'm not going to consider the kid's feelings other than to brace for how I think he might respond. If he earned a T, he's getting a T; and I'm not going to wimp out of that call for the sake of his precious little self-esteem. His self-esteem is his coach's responsibility, not mine.

Now, let me ask you a question about the part of your post I put in blue above. How are you going to get involved, "for everyone's sake?" Just how high is your horse, anyway?

Personally, I think it might be a good time to let the situation resolve itself just like you did.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now, let me ask you a question about the part of your post I put in blue above. How are you going to get involved, "for everyone's sake?" Just how high is your horse, anyway?

I do not ride a horse nor carry a big stick. I would have step between the player and coach and tried to talk the player out of it. I would have at least given that a try and not access any technicals if successful, but warned the bench. I said this before, I am pro-players and against the coaches actions here. You should not push a kid that far. It's just a basketball game. I agree with the arguement of making the players tough, however, I disagree with driving them crazy to do so. I guess since you didn't see the look in his eyes, you couldn't understand that, rightfully so. But you should comprehend the fact that this is a 17 year old. Can you imagine what must be going thru your head at age 17 to go after an adult? And of that, how much of it is rage and how much is emotion? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this is not a good situation for this kid and I made need to get involved from a parents prospective. You guys may disagree with that, but that's just how I feel inside.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

I do not ride a horse nor carry a big stick. I would have step between the player and coach and tried to talk the player out of it. I would have at least given that a try and not access any technicals if successful, but warned the bench. I said this before, I am pro-players and against the coaches actions here. You should not push a kid that far. It's just a basketball game. I agree with the arguement of making the players tough, however, I disagree with driving them crazy to do so. I guess since you didn't see the look in his eyes, you couldn't understand that, rightfully so. But you should comprehend the fact that this is a 17 year old. Can you imagine what must be going thru your head at age 17 to go after an adult? And of that, how much of it is rage and how much is emotion? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this is not a good situation for this kid and I made need to get involved from a parents prospective. You guys may disagree with that, but that's just how I feel inside.

I agree that the coach should not be acting like this, and I agree that it's not good for the kid, and I agree that this is a bad situation, and I'd never, never let my kid get into a spot like this.

However, it's simply not the ref's job to interfere here in any way. Absolutely not. It's not your place to take the "parent's perspective". You can't do it. Can't. Mustn't. Especially with a 17 yo.

While I agree that a kid shouldn't be treated that way, the kid is there voluntarily, and he had to know earlier than this situation what kind of coach this was. And the kid's parents should have known. You have no right or authority to interfere, except as the player or the coach break the rules.

THis has nothing to do with being a "rule-spouting robot" or whatever it was you called it. It has to do with legal authority. Stepping closer so that the coach knows he's being observed seems like a good move. But further involved you can't get, until rules are broken.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

While I agree that a kid shouldn't be treated that way, the kid is there voluntarily, and he had to know earlier than this situation what kind of coach this was. And the kid's parents should have known. You have no right or authority to interfere, except as the player or the coach break the rules.

THis has nothing to do with being a "rule-spouting robot" or whatever it was you called it. It has to do with legal authority. Stepping closer so that the coach knows he's being observed seems like a good move. But further involved you can't get, until rules are broken.

Then we shall disagree. You will also have to show me in the code where it says I can't intervene to help a player who I perceive may be in danger. I understand we must be careful in terms of liability and the law.

We are humans first and I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said that if an American is in danger or need, then it is our duty to help and not turn out backs. It sounds as though you would turn your back on someone in need, simply because you have a referee uniform on. Well, this is where we separate the good from the great. The great finds a way, the good finds excuses. I have said this before and I will say it again. It takes courage to stand up for what is right, it takes even greater courage to stand up for what is not.

I am very concerned for the sport of basketball in what I am seeing on the courts. Last year while working a National AAU Tournament, very young kids. There was a player on the court who was crying. I told the coach he has to come out because he is crying. The coach said he needs to toughen up and would not take him out. Now the burden (maybe self inflicted) switched back to me and I was torn inside what to do. I took the route, this is not a referee issue and let the player continue to play. I was quite upset with myself afterwards. But to take a stand meant I would have to go against the coach which I did not know at that point in time what to do. Bottom line is I have to sleep with myself and I have a conscience and I believe I let that kid down. It takes even greater courage to stand up for what is not right. It's not happening on my court and if you want to take my uniform you can have it. It is a sad state of affairs if this is what we have let our game come too. Win at all cost, the players is expendable. I know you are short-sided when it comes to these type of issue, especially when it comes to the rulebook. But what about tomorrow? This abused kid is going to become an adult, and one day may become a coach. What type of coach do you think he will be, or better, would you want this type of man coaching your grandson or granddaughter?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Old School

We are humans first and I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said that if an American is in danger or need, then it is our duty to help and not turn out backs.

I would not put much stock in anything Ronald Reagan said. And I agree with Juulie that it is not our duty to intervene in a "family" dispute like that. If a kid is crying then they should not be playing an emotional sport. As stated the only thing we really can do is penalize the language, but if there is no profanity then we need to move on. This is an issue with the schools, parents and the coaches to handle.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Rut, why are you attributing that post to me?

[mick]

I remain aware of the Officials Code of Ethics.

• Officials at an interscholastic athletic event are participants in the educational development of high school students. As such, they must exercise a high level of self-discipline, independence and responsibility. The purpose of this Code is to establish guidelines for ethical standards of conduct for all interscholastic officials. [Some of this Code is:]
  • Officials shall uphold the honor and dignity....
  • Officials shall ... comport themselves in a manner consistent with the high standards of their profession.
  • Officials shall remain mindful that their conduct influences the respect that student-athletes, coaches and the public hold for the profession.

Quite possibly, the words (ie., responsibility, ethical, honor, dignity, standards, influences) will have different personal meanings to individual Officials. And regardless of whether we totally or partially agree with the exact measure of *What is Right" during a contest, it is important that each Official is "true to self", that our purpose, our reason to officiate has not been influenced by factors that lie somewhere outside our realm of propriety.

Yes, the Rules should be applied and must never be mis-applied.
Yet, if the rules do not specifically include what we may personally view as the Wellness of the Game, it is not unjustifiable that, left with nothing else to employ, we default to our personal sense of "right".

If we see an adult and a youth in a heated exchange [in a parking lot, in a yard], with no written rules in that lot or yard, are we obliged to observe, to act, to follow our gut, or to look away and let another fix it.

...Whatever! Without a particular rule, do what personally feels right.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

We are humans first and I believe it was Ronald Reagan who said that if an American is in danger or need, then it is our duty to help and not turn out backs. It sounds as though you would turn your back on someone in need, simply because you have a referee uniform on. Well, this is where we separate the good from the great.

I know you are short-sided when it comes to these type of issue, especially when it comes to the rulebook. But what about tomorrow? This abused kid is going to become an adult, and one day may become a coach. What type of coach do you think he will be, or better, would you want this type of man coaching your grandson or granddaughter?

No, I don't want this person coaching my kids or grandkids, and as a parent, I get the choice. But other parents have choices, too, and if they want that person coaching, I have no grounds to interfere. I don't like it, and i"ll work against it in whatever avenue I can, but I sure can't just arbitrarily decide that my stripes make me the final word on what's going to happen or not happen on the basketball floor.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I don't like it, and i"ll work against it in whatever avenue I can, but I sure can't just arbitrarily decide that my stripes make me the final word on what's going to happen or not happen on the basketball floor.

Actually, I disagree respectfully again. On my court, and I have said this before. We are all going to respect one another or there's not going to be a game. We (officials) bring the intergrity to the floor and at the youth level, there will be respect for everyone that is there, or I will have people removed. Fans will respect fans, players will respect one another, coaches will respect the officials, and so on. I have the authority to ensure that this happens and in the event that it doesn't. I would like to feel I am within my rights to do something about it. If we are outside the scope of the rulebook, which I kind of think we are here. Then you do what you believe to be right or you turn your head and ignore it forever.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Last year while working a National AAU Tournament, very young kids.

Which national tournament? Which city? What age group? What hotel did you stay at? Who assigned this?

Just wondering.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I do not ride a horse nor carry a big stick. I would have step between the player and coach and tried to talk the player out of it. I would have at least given that a try and not access any technicals if successful, but warned the bench. I said this before, I am pro-players and against the coaches actions here. You should not push a kid that far. It's just a basketball game. I agree with the arguement of making the players tough, however, I disagree with driving them crazy to do so. I guess since you didn't see the look in his eyes, you couldn't understand that, rightfully so. But you should comprehend the fact that this is a 17 year old. Can you imagine what must be going thru your head at age 17 to go after an adult? And of that, how much of it is rage and how much is emotion? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this is not a good situation for this kid and I made need to get involved from a parents prospective. You guys may disagree with that, but that's just how I feel inside.

So let me get this straight.
You're going to insert yourself into what you think is a situation where the player needs you to protect him from his coach's verbal abuse? You see this kid once, for a total of what, an hour? And now you think you're qualified to ascertain the health of this coach/player relationship? Furthermore, you think you can step in and shield this player?

You've got no idea of the history between these two, and unless you've got more contact with them than you're letting on, I'd go so far as to say you probably have no business getting involved. It's for the players, parents, and coach to hash out later.

The only involvement I can justify is if either of their behavior warrants a T. Tell them to save it for after the game and move on.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So let me get this straight.
You're going to insert yourself into what you think is a situation where the player needs you to protect him from his coach's verbal abuse? You see this kid once, for a total of what, an hour? And now you think you're qualified to ascertain the health of this coach/player relationship? Furthermore, you think you can step in and shield this player?

You've got no idea of the history between these two, and unless you've got more contact with them than you're letting on, I'd go so far as to say you probably have no business getting involved. It's for the players, parents, and coach to hash out later.

The only involvement I can justify is if either of their behavior warrants a T. Tell them to save it for after the game and move on.

See my (not very long) post on the previous page...or any of Mick's posts in this thread...