4 Guys on the floor....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Or perhaps because there is no advantage gained from unknowingly having only 4 players returned and no penalty is needed unless the 5th one joins in while the ball is live? I've often wondered why and would like a clarification from NFHS.

Yup, it's not definitively covered, as we've already gone over already several times in different threads. I agree with the logic above that no penalty is listed and there's no need to call a "T" if the fifth player doesn't come on. Playing with 4 players by itself is penalty enough.

[Nevadaref]

I have a similar thought to you and JR about the inherent disadvantage of playing with four, but the NFHS does have a requirement that a team has to play the game with five players if it has five team members available.

3-1-1 . . . Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

Where JR and I disagree is that my position is that there most definitely is a rule which covers a team failing to send five back out following a time-out or intermission. It is 10-1-9, and the penalty is also right there in black-and-white. The book clearly states that this is a technical foul.

What is not currently covered, due to the rule change back in 2005-06 which altered the penalty for leaving the court, is the case in which a team does this after a normal substitution process due to confusion. 10-1-9 wouldn't apply under those circumstances and 9-3-3 is intended to only govern action during a live ball.

Hence we need and have a case play that tells us to call a T if the fifth player returns to the court during playing action, but we have no guidance whatsoever if the kid does not return. This is the case for which no penalty is prescribed in the NFHS rules.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

3-1-1 . . . Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.
NOTE: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

Neither case play cited above is relevant or applicable to the situation being discussed. In the first case, the team simply has NO substitutes. In the second case, the player came on to the court during playing action, NOT at the next opportunity to substitute.

Apples and dinosaurs.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Neither case play cited above is relevant or applicable to the situation being discussed. In the first case, the team simply has NO substitutes. In the second case, the player came on to the court during playing action, NOT at the next opportunity to substitute.

Apples and dinosaurs.

Did you even read what I wrote in my post?
I mentioned 3-1-1 because it is the general rule which states that a team plays with five players and MUST start with that number. We can't allow them to begin with four and we can only allow them to continue with four when they have no subs available. I point this out to counter the argument of those who say why can't we let a team play with four? Afterall, it is its own penalty. Well, because the RULES of NFHS basketball say otherwise.

Then before I quoted 10.3.3 SitB, I wrote this:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Hence we need and have a case play that tells us to call a T if the fifth player returns to the court during playing action, but we have no guidance whatsoever if the kid does not return. This is the case for which no penalty is prescribed in the NFHS rules.

So now we know what apples we're talking about and we also know who the dinosaur is.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

The ruling is to call the T when A5 returned to the court. It says nothing about calling it while they are playing with 4. If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

tj, see my previous post for my comment about 10.3.3 Sit B.

[tjchamp]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

The ruling is to call the T when A5 returned to the court. It says nothing about calling it while they are playing with 4. If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tjchamp

If the intent of the rule was to T if they are playing with 4, wouldn't the case point out the T should be called immediately?

Bingo!