Self bat

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

JR that same case play 4.15.4SitE(b). The ruling specifically says since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

Joe, that case play is referencing rule 4-15-1. The player is starting a dribble. If he grabs the ball before it hits the floor once, he has never legally dribbled. Iow, there never was a legal dribble involved. In the play being discussed, the player is in the middle of a legal dribble. All he is doing is ending that legal dribble.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

KCRef: What if it had bounced before he got to it?

Legal. Just another dribble.

How about if a player threw the ball against the backboard off the dribble then went to finish a la T Mac, would that be a double dribble?

As long as it's off his own backboard, legal as well.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

1) JR, so it's legal to pass to yourself?

2) KCRef: What if it had bounced before he got to it?

3) How about if a player threw the ball against the backboard off the dribble then went to finish a la T Mac, would that be a double dribble?

1) Where do you get a "pass" from? The bat was part of the dribble. See casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a).

2) Casebook play 4-15.4SitD(b) answers that one. It's a "interrupted dribble". It's legal to either continue dribbling or end the dribble. If you end the dribble, rule 4-44 will determine whether the player subsequently travels or not.

3) Legal play. Judgment call as to whether the ball thrown against the backboard was a shot or a pass. Unless you're a mindreader (and I'm certainly not), the common practice is to judge it as a "try".

[Scrapper1]

I can't believe that anybody would say that it's ok to throw the ball into the air, run 6 steps (or 3/4 of the court, for all that) and catch the ball.

[M&M Guy]

First off:
I need to apologize...grumble...for yelling yesterday...mumble, mumble...not professional...impersonating Dan...under pressure to hold up a metal softball bat during a thunderstorm...sorry.

Ok, let me tell you it really worries me that I am on the same side as OS and Nevada... However, I understand JR's and Mark's position, that if there's a legal dribble, and it's ended, and not started again, there is no violation. In fact, all of the "illegal dribble" violations listed in 9-5 have to do with dribbling a second time after ending the first dribble. But there's that pesky 4-15-2, which says, "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." This absolutley fits the play in the OP, so, JR and Mark, are you saying the touching again before the ball hits the floor (the catch-and-shoot) is simply "ending the dribble"? Isn't 4-15-2 saying the second touch is not allowed at all, not just the end of a legal dribble? If it was the end of a legal dribble, wouldn't that second touch also be mentioned in 4-15-4?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I can't believe that anybody would say that it's ok to throw the ball into the air, run 6 steps (or 3/4 of the court, for all that) and catch the ball.

I agree.

What's that got to with what we're discussing?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by KCRef

Had a player last night dribbling up the court for a 1 on 1 break. Right before he got to the defender, he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air, and shot it before returning to the ground. The ball did not hit the floor before he caught his own pass either. Is this legal? What if it had bounced before he got to it? He thought that since he caught and released the ball in midair, there would be no violation. I disagreed.

Okay, now granted it's the 2004-2005 NFHS Casebook (latest at the house) 4.15.4 Situation E (b) states:
(b) A1 throws (lob in OP) the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps to before catchig it.

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP?? And yes, I've argued this same caseplay yesterday almost to orgasm...

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Okay, now granted it's the 2004-2005 NFHS Casebook (latest at the house) 4.15.4 Situation E (b) states:
(b) A1 throws (lob in OP) the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps to before catchig it.

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP?? And yes, I've argued this same caseplay yesterday almost to orgasm...

Forgive the typos... I actually pull the forum up before my first cup of joe.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Forgive the typos... I actually pull the forum up before my first cup of joe.

You had a cup of yourself??

Even though I'm arguing the original play was a violation, I'm not sure this case play exactly fits, because the throw indicates control/coming to rest in the hand/ending the dribble, etc., not a bat during a legal dribble. The OP says the player was dribbling, and batted the ball over the defender during the dribble. If the play was the player dribbling, the ball then came to rest in his hand, he then tossed it over the defender and retreived the ball, then this case play would fit.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP??

The case play refers to the start of a dribble. The player did not start the dribble legally as per rule 4-15-1. Iow, a "dribble" per se never actually happened. You gotta hit the floor to meet the definition of a "dribble". In the OP, the play being discussed happened during a legal dribble.

Apples and poi.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The case play refers to the start of a dribble. The player did not start the dribble legally as per rule 4-15-1. Iow, a "dribble" per se never actually happened. You gotta hit the floor to meet the definition of a "dribble". In the OP, the play being discussed happened during a legal dribble.

Apples and poi.

Ok!!!!!! Grasshopper finally gets it, JR. And it only took you about 3 times to tell me.. LOL Thanks.