Self bat

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

4-15-2 states what is allowed and says that, if you do that, you can continue to dribble.

Note that the illegal dribble rule (9-5) states that you can't dribble a second time after ending your first dribble. There's no penalty for a "funky" move that ends your dribble.

You sure are a lot smarter than some of the softball players I know.()

[Camron Rust]

The play in the OP is an illegal dribble.

This is specifically talked about in the "Handbook".

WAAAAYY back...even before Jurrassic's appearance on the basketball scene, there was something called an air dribble. At the time, the rules only said was that a player couldn't run while holding the ball. So, some intellegent player figured they could repeatedly tap/bat the ball up into the air while running down the floor...never letting it hit the floor and never holding the ball.

The rule that is now 4-15-2 was added to prohibit this practice. While a player may still bat the ball into the air, it much touch the floor before they touch it again. To do otherwise is an illegal dribble.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by KCRef

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?

If he ended the dribble and then batted the ball into the air, it's an illegal dribble.

It is not illegal if he is dribbling, bats the ball, goes around the opponent and catches the ball before it hits the floor.

It would never be traveling.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

..........the violations are in rule 9.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble. RULING: Violation in (a) because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

Where, in rule 9, is this violation?

Foot movement, during a dribble, is totally irrelevant, is it not? So, if A1 bats the ball up in the air, even while standing still, is he allowed to catch it before it hits the floor? If not, then apparently, (this part would take a guy with really quick hands) during a dribble, A1 pushes the ball toward the floor, then reaches down and grabs it before it touches the floor, this would also be a violation.

One thing I am certain about, this was a really good question.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Where is Nevadaref when you need him to post the rules???

I was busy doing a State Cup soccer match. You know that game which Rut doesn't care about and has an age limit for referees at the top levels.

Since others have nicely posted the revelant rules and case book plays, I have little to add. I agree with the ruling given below.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Illegal dribble, per 4-15-2. Remember, his jump, catch and shot was after the bat over the defender's head. It would've been legal if the ball hit the ground first.

[Nevadaref]

BTW the proper signal for an illegal dribble is number 19 on the NFHS chart. It is the same one that is used for a double dribble.

[Ref in PA]

If A1, dribbling, stands perfectly still and bats the ball up in the air and then catches it, all without moving the feet, are you going to call that an illegal dribble??? I think not. The double touch rule is for when the dribble is continued and the ball touches the floor. Catching the ball ends the dribble, therefore the double touch rule does not apply. No where in the rules are the movement of feet considered as part of dribbling (except in case 4.15.4 E(b) where a dribble is being started), in fact, Note 1 at the end of 4-15-4 explicitly states that is is not possible to travel during a dribble.

The batting of the ball into the air does not seem to fit any of the definitions ending a dribble as outlined in 4-15-4.

The only way the OP play could be considered a violation is if you consider the dribble ending because of the bat of the ball. Somehow you must judge that the ball came to rest, thus ending the dribble. The movement and subsequent touch (catch and shot) would then be ruled an illegal dribble as in 4.15.4 E(b).

I do not consider the bat as described in the OP as the ball coming to rest, thus ending the dribble. Therefore, I consider the OP a legal play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble. RULING: Violation in (a) because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

Where, in rule 9, is this violation?

9-5, because he's dribbling a second time (batting the ball to the floor) after the dribble ended (touching his hands a second time while in the air).

Even the casebook play says that it is a violation if it occurs "during a dribble." Catching the ball and shooting it is not a dribble.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

9-5, because he's dribbling a second time (batting the ball to the floor) after the dribble ended (touching his hands a second time while in the air).

Even the casebook play says that it is a violation if it occurs "during a dribble." Catching the ball and shooting it is not a dribble.

Where is it written that touching the ball a second time while in the air ends the dribble?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where is it written that touching the ball a second time while in the air ends the dribble?

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between ending a dribble and committing an illegal act during a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally ended his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

[Scrapper1]

I can't believe that anybody would say that it's ok to throw the ball into the air, run 6 steps (or 3/4 of the court, for all that) and catch the ball.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by KCRef

Had a player last night dribbling up the court for a 1 on 1 break. Right before he got to the defender, he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air, and shot it before returning to the ground. The ball did not hit the floor before he caught his own pass either. Is this legal? What if it had bounced before he got to it? He thought that since he caught and released the ball in midair, there would be no violation. I disagreed.

Okay, now granted it's the 2004-2005 NFHS Casebook (latest at the house) 4.15.4 Situation E (b) states:
(b) A1 throws (lob in OP) the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps to before catchig it.

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP?? And yes, I've argued this same caseplay yesterday almost to orgasm...

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Okay, now granted it's the 2004-2005 NFHS Casebook (latest at the house) 4.15.4 Situation E (b) states:
(b) A1 throws (lob in OP) the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps to before catchig it.

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP?? And yes, I've argued this same caseplay yesterday almost to orgasm...

Forgive the typos... I actually pull the forum up before my first cup of joe.

[M&M Guy]

First off:
I need to apologize...grumble...for yelling yesterday...mumble, mumble...not professional...impersonating Dan...under pressure to hold up a metal softball bat during a thunderstorm...sorry.

Ok, let me tell you it really worries me that I am on the same side as OS and Nevada... However, I understand JR's and Mark's position, that if there's a legal dribble, and it's ended, and not started again, there is no violation. In fact, all of the "illegal dribble" violations listed in 9-5 have to do with dribbling a second time after ending the first dribble. But there's that pesky 4-15-2, which says, "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." This absolutley fits the play in the OP, so, JR and Mark, are you saying the touching again before the ball hits the floor (the catch-and-shoot) is simply "ending the dribble"? Isn't 4-15-2 saying the second touch is not allowed at all, not just the end of a legal dribble? If it was the end of a legal dribble, wouldn't that second touch also be mentioned in 4-15-4?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Forgive the typos... I actually pull the forum up before my first cup of joe.

You had a cup of yourself??

Even though I'm arguing the original play was a violation, I'm not sure this case play exactly fits, because the throw indicates control/coming to rest in the hand/ending the dribble, etc., not a bat during a legal dribble. The OP says the player was dribbling, and batted the ball over the defender during the dribble. If the play was the player dribbling, the ball then came to rest in his hand, he then tossed it over the defender and retreived the ball, then this case play would fit.