game plat situation #2

[Mark Dexter]

I'm sorry, Tony. That would be Chuck who said something along those lines.

Why does my brain have to stop functioning right around finals?

[hooters]

i do not know if you guys know eroe39(eli roe), but the name sounded familiar to me so i asked around. apparently he is an official making his way successfully through the sec system,(and umbrella) and officiates in the nbdl and wnba. it may be wise to accept his rules knowledge/interpretations to raise your level of officiating. if you want to be a good highschool offical just ignore him but, do not discredit him because there are some people on this forum that would like to achieve the next level. by the way who said this forum was strictly highschool, college and pro philosophies are welcomed by me. now that you know, give credit where it is due.

[BktBallRef]

I'm sure Eli is a fine official. I have no doubt that he will continue to move up the ladder, if that is his desire. Good luck Eli, and as I've already said, welcome!

With regards to this forum, 95% of the posts here are by high school officials and are based on NF rules. So, if you're speaking in terms of NCAA rulings or philosophies, or the NBA, whcih I've never seen except for a question or two by a fan, then it might help mention that in your post.

In my reply to Eli, I cited NF rules and case plays. He still disagreed with my many points and the rules and case plays that I quoted. I'm sure he's quite knowledgable. But when any official attempts to convince me of something that I can plainly see is different than what's in the rule book, I'll always have difficulty with it. No matter who it is.

With regards to high school officials, there's nothing wrong with being happy and content with officiating high school basketball. That doesn't mean one is complacent or isn't ambitious. I personally, have too many other interests that would prevent me from ever pursuing a college career or further.

BTW, no one has attempted to discredit anyone. People make their own decisions. I don't believe Eli has done anything to be discredited for. He is certainly entitled to his point of view. But that doesn't mean we have to agree. Does it Eli?

[eroe39]

BasketballRef, this forum is very interesting. I didn't realize what type of debate this would cause when I decided to actually answer some of these plays. A friend of mine told me about this and I think this is a great way for people to learn from others and exchange different view points. I'll have to admit I did not know this forum was primarily answered by high school officials so that is partly my fault and I should of mentioned that my points are not based on high school basketball. But I do agree with Mark that this forum should accept college and pro philosophies. Even if they are not agreed with it can't hurt to discuss them. Some people are interested in the pro game or college game. I was hoping to remain incognito on this forum but I guess that is too late. I certainly agree with you that there is absolutely nothing wrong with working high school basketball. I loved working high school basketball and actually miss it. I totally understand that some people cannot pursue the college or pro game due to family, job, etc. You made a comment that I disagree with you despite the casebook plays or rules. That is not normal for me. I guess I am out of room so I will go to another page.

[eroe39]

We cannot take every rule literally. I think I mentioned the 3 second play to you. Here are a couple more examples. It is a delay of game warning when the defender of the throw-in steps out of bounds or waves his hand so that it goes over the boundary plane even if just by two inches. Obviously, as officials we do not call this play every time as defenders violate this rule constantly. We use our judgement when to enforce the rule. When we believe it places the thrower-in at a disadvantage we call this. Also, it is a technical foul if the coach steps onto the floor. However, practically every coach in America steps onto the court several times during a game and generally it is just to yell instructions to his players. We use our judgement when to enforce this rule. Not all rules are black and white in my opinion. Judgement still needs to be used as to when to enforce certain rules. The spirit and intent of the rule should be analyzed. Please don't think I am somehow anti-rule. I study the rules religiously and think they are very important to the game.

[eroe39]

And no, BasketballRef, you don't have to agree with me. I am certainly not some know-it-all. I welcome different opinions and look forward to hearing yours.

[eroe39]

I meant Larry, when I said Mark, in my earlier post. Sorry guys, I am new to this and am having to start over a lot.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by eroe39
We cannot take every rule literally. I think I mentioned the 3 second play to you. Here are a couple more examples. It is a delay of game warning when the defender of the throw-in steps out of bounds or waves his hand so that it goes over the boundary plane even if just by two inches. Obviously, as officials we do not call this play every time as defenders violate this rule constantly. We use our judgement when to enforce the rule. When we believe it places the thrower-in at a disadvantage we call this. Also, it is a technical foul if the coach steps onto the floor. However, practically every coach in America steps onto the court several times during a game and generally it is just to yell instructions to his players. We use our judgement when to enforce this rule. Not all rules are black and white in my opinion. Judgement still needs to be used as to when to enforce certain rules. The spirit and intent of the rule should be analyzed. Please don't think I am somehow anti-rule. I study the rules religiously and think they are very important to the game.

Well stated...
Here are some more;
* The semi dunk...not slam dunk...in pregame warmups...if just a one time thing I'll usually ignore it...NO "T"

* The books at the table are not completely filled out 10 minutes prior to the game...person is still frantically writing the players and numbers in...I don't check the books untill I see they are finished...NO "T"

* Both the Coach and Assistant Coach are standing in or outside the box during the game...I warn them...NO "T"

* (Here's one that will get some of you)...A player misses a lay-up...uses profanity under his breath, to himself...I hear it...maybe say something to him at a break in the action...NO "T"

All of the above, BY RULE, could be a Technical Foul...and sometimes they will be called...sometimes they will not...depends on the situation. Therefore, IMO not black and white.

Sorry BsktbalRef, but I do believe this is a good forum for opinons...it develops each officials personal philosophy of how he/she wants to call the game. You seem to have an excellent knowledge of the rules...keep up the great work on the rule references...but please, have some patience with those officials who want to post their thoughts...try not to belittle them...just show them where they are "wrong".

I would be willing to bet a game check that there are many who read these posts but are afraid to ask or respond to questions because of the ridicule they may face.

That is too bad,because no matter how simple the question may be to the experienced official...it is still good review for all of us.

RookieDude

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by eroe39
I guess I am out of room so I will go to another page.

Just FYI, eroe, you can go beyond the limits of the box for posting. It will simply become a scroll box and make the post larger.

[DrakeM]

Folks,
Eli will prove to be a valuable resource for this board.
He is currently in the NBA development program and is learning daily from the best in the business. (Eli, I hope you don't mind being "outed")
I have worked with Eli at Coast to Coast Referee School and know that he is an excellent official. (Brad, you may know Eli as well)
IMHO, sometimes the High School rules are not written with a whole of common sense. As you progress to higher levels of basketball you will find that common sense in combination with rules knowledge is essential to calling the game.
The philosophies I have learned from the NBA officials
that have taught me, (Ed Rush, Ron Garretson, Bob Delaney, Greg Willard, Steve Javie,Gary Zielinski, and many others)
have NEVER failed me or gotten me in trouble when working a
High School or College game.
Eli, I know that this board primarily deals with High School and College situations, but I for one hope you continue to post. Good luck with your season,and when you see Kurt, Mike H, and Gary Z., say Hi for me.
Drake Marques

[rainmaker]

I agree that we should be able to mix philosophies and the rules for levels on this board, but in my opinion the result should be a salad, not a smoothie. What I mean is, When you make a salad, you chop up lettuce, carrots, celery, maybe green pepper if you can digest it, and so on, but each item remains what it fundamentally was. and you could at any time, put all the carrot pieces into a pile and all the celery into a different pile and then use those in some different dish, such as a casserole that takes carrot, but not celery.

We are all adults here and should be mature enough to have mixed discussions, while keeping the elements separated. For instance, NBA philosophy simply cannot be used at the 6th grade rec level. It is fundamentally not the same. I can talk about both, and even apply both in different games, but I'm not going to try to put NBA thinking in the blender with recreational playing and come out with one homogeneous product.

The people around here that do different levels, usually are very good at one level, before they move up and start over with a different level. I am hoping to be that kind of ref someday, so while I am at the level of JV and below, I am taking all talk of college and pro with a grain of salt -- not that it's wrong but that I am not going to use it right now. The salt is a preservative, to hold it over for later.

I especially am interested in the part about eroe doing WNBA, and would read all those posts with interest, since my aspiration is to rise to that level someday. However, I'm not going to use WNBA philosophy or rules in the games I do this year -- it would not be right.

I particularly disagree with the person who said, they may pass on a charge if the defender is under the basket. In the NBA, this is the right no-call, by rule. In NF, this is the WRONG NO-CALL whether the fans like it or not. They usually only go by what they see on TV so they may not scream, if you skip it, but that is no true and faithful guide. I would expect that if eroe came and did a HS game, he would expect to call this charge, and would do it when it happened. He could not have risen to the level he has without being faithful to the level he was working.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by RookieDude

...
* The books at the table are not completely filled out 10 minutes prior to the game...person is still frantically writing the players and numbers in...I don't check the books untill I see they are finished...NO "T"
...

Hey Rook, just so you know, under NFHS & NCAA this is NOT a
T. The requirement is to *supply* the lineup & starters
to the table 10 minutes before. All you have to do is make
sure what eventually gets into the book matches what was
provided.

But I get your point.

[Hawks Coach]

I believe that Rainmaker is right to a degree. However, I would argue that there are some common philosophical approaches that can (should) be used at all levels. The same philosophy results in different calls depending on level of play. While this point may be obvious to some, I think it is an important distinction.

1. Know AND understand the rules, the cases, and the game of basketball.

2. By utilizing all of this knowledge and understanding, referee not merely to the rule, but to the spirit and intent of the rule.

3. Call what you must, but try to keep a game flowing. The game is for players to play. (In 3rd grade rec, this means ignore the three step travel on a lay-up but call the downcourt sprint with no dribble. In HS, this may be not saying a word when the coach is one step on the court, unless he is doing so to get in your face. In college, you may be ignoring the three second call unless forced to make it.)

4. Be consistent within the game so the players can play to what you are calling.

5. Maintain a safe and sportsmanlike contest.

6. Respect all participants.

7. Love what you do - it's a great game!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by crew

the reasoning for the restricted area in the pro and nc2a womens, is that a defender cannot(not all the time but most) defend the basket/contest a shot while standing under the basket. this is the philosophy, which goes along with the player lying on the floor, he cannot defend anything so there is no point on being on the floor accident or not. this is not in the mens rules but is taught at the mens camps. they just want us to look a little deeper into the situation, these plays are not black and white.

I am not going to address the NBA/WNBA's position on a defender standing under the basket, but I will address the NFHS/NCAA position.

The definition of obtaining(NFHS)/establishing(NCAA) a legal guarding position are identical in both rules books. The definition of a legal guarding position has never placed court position requirements on the defender. The reason is that when a player becomes airborne, he/she must do so in a manner that will allow him/her to return to the floor without making illegal contact with a defender who has obtained a legal position on the court. Fortunately, the NFHS and NCAA Men's Committees have had the good sense to maintain this intepretation. Barb Jacobs, unfortunately, has never officiated basketball and really has very little knowledge of the rules of the game (just read some of the interpretations that have come from her office, including incorrect rules citations), and she does not understand the concept of having a legal position on the court.

It should also be remembered that a defender does not have to be guarding an opponent to have a legal position on the court. A defender can also set screens. (If you do not believe me, read the definitions of guarding and screening. Guarding specifically addresses defensive players, and screening specifically addresses players, and makes no mention of defensive or offensive players.) Just because a player has gained a legal position on the court that happens to be directly under the basket should be on no consequence. Barb Jacob's interpretation regarding a defensive player under the basket can not be defended by rule. I can remember when she made this interpretation, a number of my friends that officiate Div. I women's basketball were appalled at the interpretation. If you take the time to look at the section in question in the NCAA Women's Rules and look at Rule 13 (Comments on the Rules) of the NBA/WNBA Rules Books that addresses defenders standing under the basket (inside the little circle), one will see that they are identical, word for word.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eroe39
We cannot take every rule literally. I think I mentioned the 3 second play to you.

No, we can't and I don't. But when the NF posts a situation in the case book or on their website, I blieve it's because they want it called that way. I cited a case play that addresses the original post. In such cases as this, I believe the NF wants the rule called based on the case book play. Otherwise, there'd be no reason to print the book.

Originally posted by RookieDude
Well stated...
Here are some more;
* The semi dunk...not slam dunk...in pregame warmups...if just a one time thing I'll usually ignore it...NO "T"

It's either a dunk or it isn't. But if it's close, preventive officiating would dictate that you give a small warning to the player.

* The books at the table are not completely filled out 10 minutes prior to the game...person is still frantically writing the players and numbers in...I don't check the books untill I see they are finished...NO "T"

You may want to look at this rule again. The book does not have to be ready at the 10 minute mark. The roster and starting lineup for each team must simply be ready and available for the scorer to record.

* Both the Coach and Assistant Coach are standing in or outside the box during the game...I warn them...NO "T"

Yes, but you shouldn't continue to warn them all night.

Sorry BsktbalRef, but I do believe this is a good forum for opinons...it develops each officials personal philosophy of how he/she wants to call the game. You seem to have an excellent knowledge of the rules...keep up the great work on the rule references...but please, have some patience with those officials who want to post their thoughts...try not to belittle them...just show them where they are "wrong".

First, I've re-read what I wrote and I don't believe I've belittled anyone. I certainly didn't call anyone any names and refer to them in a derogatory manner.

Of course, this forum is is for opinions. But that doesn't mean we have to agree. When I feel that a rule supports my postion, I'm going to argue that rule. It would be silly for me to disagree but not offer my opinion as well. And if I have a rule to back me up, I'm going to use it.

I would be willing to bet a game check that there are many who read these posts but are afraid to ask or respond to questions because of the ridicule they may face.

Well, that's unfortunate. Spirited debate is part of this forum. You're new and hopefully you will adjustn to that. I've been posting here for a while. I'd rather someone stand up and argue their point with me than to act as if I don't exist and talk about me in the third person. It's very unlikely that I'll supress my opinion if I feel strongly about it. I hope you won't be offended.

That is too bad,because no matter how simple the question may be to the experienced official...it is still good review for all of us.

I have not seen any question, no matter how simple, put to ridicule. Again, don't be offended but you can't be so sensitive. There are lots of young officials on this board that I believe I have helped since I first began to post. I'll be glad to help you but you gotta take the good with what you perceive as the bad.

If not, then do what I do in some cases. Just ignore the post.