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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 15, 2007, 08:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Sorry boys, but you are having a pointless discussion. Those issues are NOT on the list of proposed changes.
No, but several of the proposals relate to adding team control to a throw-in. The 10-second and 3-second rules could need revision if one of those proposals passes.

Personally, I think that we should not change the definition of team control. If you really want to have team control fouls during throw-ins, we should expand the defintion of team control fouls, adding "common fouls during a throw-in". JMO.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 15, 2007, 08:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
No, but several of the proposals relate to adding team control to a throw-in. The 10-second and 3-second rules could need revision if one of those proposals passes.

Personally, I think that we should not change the definition of team control. If you really want to have team control fouls during throw-ins, we should expand the defintion of team control fouls, adding "common fouls during a throw-in". JMO.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 02:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
No, but several of the proposals relate to adding team control to a throw-in. The 10-second and 3-second rules could need revision if one of those proposals passes.

Personally, I think that we should not change the definition of team control. If you really want to have team control fouls during throw-ins, we should expand the defintion of team control fouls, adding "common fouls during a throw-in". JMO.
hey chuck how would they need revision?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 02:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
...how would they need revision?
That has been discussed extensively during this thread:

If you added team control during a throwin, then you could have, by definition, a 3-second violation before the 5-second count ever ends.

For the 10-second count, it would have to start as soon as the ball obtained BC status since TC was established as soon as the ball was given to the thrower (who, by current defition, is considered to be in the FC during the throwin but exceptions already exist for throwins to the BC).
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 08:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
For the 10-second count, it would have to start as soon as the ball obtained BC status since TC was established as soon as the ball was given to the thrower (who, by current defition, is considered to be in the FC during the throwin but exceptions already exist for throwins to the BC).
There is no exception required currently for this, as a backcourt violation requires team control in the front court. Since there's no TC on a throwin, the exception isn't required. Nor is it there, because the "exception" refers to the team not in control. If you add team control to a throwin, this "exception" will not apply. So, in this situation, the throwin team will not be able to jump from FC, catch the ball in the air, and land in the BC on a throwin.

Secondly, if a throwin team inbounds the ball to a teammate in the BC, it would be a BC violation by rule since there is team control in the FC by definitions.

Also, if they go with Chuck's idea, it would have to be worded in a way that extended the TC foul to cover the time between a tip on a throwin pass until a player from either team controlled the ball. If they don't want a break in applicability, that is.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 08:54am
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Along these lines....I was at a college camp this weekend and one of the major mechanics changes they are implimenting next season is the calling official going to the C position every time. I'm not sure if I like it. I didn't catch the entire explanation so if any of you know more I'd like to hear it.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
Along these lines....I was at a college camp this weekend and one of the major mechanics changes they are implimenting next season is the calling official going to the C position every time. I'm not sure if I like it. I didn't catch the entire explanation so if any of you know more I'd like to hear it.
As long as it's C position tableside, I'd be fine with it.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 10:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
Along these lines....I was at a college camp this weekend and one of the major mechanics changes they are implimenting next season is the calling official going to the C position every time. I'm not sure if I like it. I didn't catch the entire explanation so if any of you know more I'd like to hear it.
I believe that is a Men's experimental mechanic only, and as such will only be used in exhibition games and certain pre-season tournaments, but is not something that will be implemented across the board next season...at least, that's what I've been told!
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 10:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
As long as it's C position tableside, I'd be fine with it.
How would that work...lead tableside calls non shooting foul on low block, goes to report and stays C tableside ???? So who's inbounding the ball on the endline? And where does the T go?

Last edited by eyezen; Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 10:53am.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
That has been discussed extensively during this thread:

If you added team control during a throwin, then you could have, by definition, a 3-second violation before the 5-second count ever ends.

For the 10-second count, it would have to start as soon as the ball obtained BC status since TC was established as soon as the ball was given to the thrower (who, by current defition, is considered to be in the FC during the throwin but exceptions already exist for throwins to the BC).
I'm not sure this is the case. On a throw-in, the player is OOB, not in the front court, even if they are next to the basket. The front court is the inbounds portion of the court. So, once the player is handed the ball for a throw-in, there would be team control, but not team control in the front court. Therefore, no exception is necessary.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 10:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
... So, in this situation, the throwin team will not be able to jump from FC, catch the ball in the air, and land in the BC on a throwin.

Secondly, if a throwin team inbounds the ball to a teammate in the BC, it would be a BC violation by rule since there is team control in the FC by definitions.

Also, if they go with Chuck's idea, it would have to be worded in a way that extended the TC foul to cover the time between a tip on a throwin pass until a player from either team controlled the ball. If they don't want a break in applicability, that is.
Enlightening - thanks.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
I'm not sure this is the case. On a throw-in, the player is OOB, not in the front court, even if they are next to the basket. The front court is the inbounds portion of the court. So, once the player is handed the ball for a throw-in, there would be team control, but not team control in the front court. Therefore, no exception is necessary.
I thought so, too, but rule 4-4 indicates otherewise. It flat out states, if the ball (or player) is not touching the backcourt, the ball has FC status. Furthermore, 4-13 defines the BC and says nothing about in bounds or out of bounds.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 11:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I thought so, too, but rule 4-4 indicates otherewise. It flat out states, if the ball (or player) is not touching the backcourt, the ball has FC status. Furthermore, 4-13 defines the BC and says nothing about in bounds or out of bounds.
Frontcourt and backcourt status (statuses, stati, ???) are all inbounds. The court is described in Rule 1, while the definitions of front court and backcourt are mentioned in 4-13. So, when a player is OOB, they are not in the front or backcourt, they are off the court.

So, if your second statement is correct, with team control on a throw-in, any throw-in after a basket would be an automatic backcourt violation every time, right?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 12:09pm
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Quote:
calling official going to the C position every time
That was the original 3 man mechanic back in the day. Then, C was always opposite the table. However, rotation schemes could be a nightmare. I've seen some at camps look like chinese fire drills.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
Frontcourt and backcourt status (statuses, stati, ???) are all inbounds. The court is described in Rule 1, while the definitions of front court and backcourt are mentioned in 4-13. So, when a player is OOB, they are not in the front or backcourt, they are off the court.

So, if your second statement is correct, with team control on a throw-in, any throw-in after a basket would be an automatic backcourt violation every time, right?
I didn't check Rule 1, but I was looking for a definition of the playing court. What can I say?
Now, that said, the answer to your question is yes unless rule 1 defines it as you say it does; in which case the answer is no.
Now, consider this scenario:
1. A has throwin along their FC sideline. (Team control established)
2. A1 releases ball where it goes into the back court after a)bouncing in FC, b)being tipped by A2. (FC status achieved by ball while TC is already ongoing.)
3. A3 retrieves ball in the backcourt.

If team control is established during a throwin, then it's a violation in both a and b.
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