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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 03:33pm
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Question

Hi all,

Can you tell me what the procedure is for a game in which the scorekeeper is not writing the fouls in the book?

We had a situation recently where the officials were properly reporting the fouls, but they were not being written in the book.

Of course, the game ends up with a two point differential. No non-shooting free throws were attempted, because no one realized they weren't being recorded until the last two minutes of the game.

Any specific rules that address which individuals are responsible for a situation such as this? Of course, the officials should have known, but without personally checking after reporting each foul, this isn't really logical. Should this be a "home administrator" responsibility (to provide a qualified scorekeeper)?

Thanks for your response and any specific rule references!

Thanks,
Tim in Hollywood
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 03:46pm
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Question

Are you telling us you went the entire game without ever once checking the team fouls? Didn't you remind the scorer at the beginning of the third period that the team fouls start over? Whenever you look over at the book, even upside-down, you would notice that there were no individual fouls marked. Was this a gym that did not have a place for team fouls on the scoreboard? If it had a regular board, and the fouls stayed at "0", that should have been a tip-off.

This is really bizarre.
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 03:46pm
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Also please address what we do if we suspect that all the fouls are not being recorded. I had a 7th grade game last week where I was 99.99% certian that I had called 3 fouls on the same player. At halftime we were checking that the kid scorekeeper's score agreed with the scoreboard and I happened to notice in the scorebook that no player for either team had 3 fouls. My "experienced" partner had never encountered that and we honestly did not know what to do.

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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 04:14pm
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Question

Hi all,

It wasn't me working the game!!! :-)

This was a 7th grade game, so everything isn't as organized as it should be. Originally, there wasn't even a scoreboard operator (one was found prior to starting the game, though). The scoreboard apparently only displayed the score and time (no fouls or anything else).

I'm mostly looking for a line in a rule book that states that the home administration is responsible for providing a scorekeeper. Is there one?

Thanks,
Tim in Hollywood
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 04:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by timasdf
Hi all,

It wasn't me working the game!!! :-)

This was a 7th grade game, so everything isn't as organized as it should be. Originally, there wasn't even a scoreboard operator (one was found prior to starting the game, though). The scoreboard apparently only displayed the score and time (no fouls or anything else).

I'm mostly looking for a line in a rule book that states that the home administration is responsible for providing a scorekeeper. Is there one?

Thanks,
Tim in Hollywood
There's nothing in the rules book, AFAIK.

It's a matter left to state / conference rules and regulations.
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 04:39pm
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With respect to scorekeepers at the MS level and below, remember that many leagues, school districts, etc. claim to follow NF rules, but have their own arrangements for how scorekeeping and timing will be done. Therefore, although NF has rules that govern these functions, they are frequently not applicable for 7th graders. This is a league level issue, not one you will necessarily be able to handle, especially at game time.

Also, scorers in these games are notoriously bad inexperienced. A good ref keeps a close eye on what happens at the table. It is especially important to follow good reporting mechanics and make eye contact with your scorekeepers. I have worked table at many MS games, and there are those of you who call out fouls from the baseline with players milling between you and the table, then go straight to inbound the ball without seeming to know or care if the table got it right.
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 05:02pm
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I will have to agree with Hawks Coach on the reporting and also admit I have caught myself doing that twice during this, my first year. In the school district I work MS games in, they use a 10 minute running clock (except last minute of each quarter). The 2 times I did not use proper reporting mechanics were both late in tight games. Guess in my haste to not unjustly penalize the losing team by burning clock I may have caused problems for the table. I am working on that and keep reminding myself every time I blow the whistle "MECHANICS".
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 05:14pm
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Hi,

I am asking on the basis of NFHS rules. The officials were HS certified.

I am hoping that there is a line in the rule book that states that the home administration is responsible for providing the home scorer. I believe that it is noted in the rule book, but do not have one readily available. :-(

Thanks,
Tim in Hollywood
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 05:48pm
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First, I thought there was something in the rules that stipulated this, but can find nothing. Second, my point is that the official's certification as NF is not of concern or issue here. What matters is how the league/district/whatever wants the table handled and who they hold responsible. For instance, I coach in a MS traveling league where I get 5 home games, 5 away games, and supply zero scorers - they are paid by the league to be there and show up. They don't show, we don't play, because they also serve as gym management. I coach in a second traveling league (care to guess why I don't ref!!!) where we have back-to-back league games in one gym every Saturday. This league's rules stipulate that each team will provide one table rep. Both leagues operate using NFHS rules. The MS public school league uses off-duty teachers from the host school at the table - they play NFHS ball too. So forget who certified the refs - you need to know who runs the league and what their table rules are. And if you have table problems, you need to address that with the league as well.
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 06:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by timasdf
I am hoping that there is a line in the rule book that states that the home administration is responsible for providing the home scorer. I believe that it is noted in the rule book, but do not have one readily available. :-(
No, there's nothing in the rule book that specifies who provides the scorer. The 2000-2002 Handbook, p. 47 addresses table officials but simply says, "Fequently, the responsibility for securing the bench officials is placed upon the coach." The 2001-2003 Officials Manuals, p. 87, gives game administration guidleines on who to recruit and how to train table officials. But that really isn't the issue, is it? Are we looking for someone to place the fault on or what?

No matter who provides the scorer, it's the referee's responsibility to insure that the scorer and timer understand their job responsibilities. I always ask the scorer and the timer if they've ever done this before. If the answer is no, then that's a red flag. Proper instruction should be given and you should check with them during the game to insure that they're performing as required. There's no excuse for this happening.
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 08:58pm
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Hi,

Quite simply, yes...we need to be able to lay this at someone's feet. Mostly so that we can get this corrected at this school (which has apparently be a problem in this area in the past).

With a rule that states that this is the coach or administrator responsibility...we may be able to get the school to change. Without it, getting things changed will be much more difficult.

I am completely aware that, ultimately, the officials at the game are responsible for such situations. However, the officials shouldn't be expected to be scorekeeper trainers, too. :-)

Thanks for the lines in the Handbook. They should help quite a bit!

Thanks,
Tim in Hollywood
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Old Thu Dec 06, 2001, 09:19pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by timasdf
Quite simply, yes...we need to be able to lay this at someone's feet. Mostly so that we can get this corrected at this school (which has apparently be a problem in this area in the past).
You're kidding? Tim, with all due respect, that makes it all the more important for the officials to recognize that there could be a problem. The officiating association knows that this has been a problem at the school before, yet doesn't warn officials who are assigned to games there? Or even worse, the officials knew of preivous problems and still didn't address the possibility?

We have several local schools that always have poorly trained timers for JV football games. Knowing this, we walk onto the field with a clock or watch, preapred to keep the time on the field if we have to. To do less, would be stupid on our part.

Quote:
With a rule that states that this is the coach or administrator responsibility...we may be able to get the school to change. Without it, getting things changed will be much more difficult.
Without question, it is the responsibility of the coach or the AD to insure that the table officials are properly trained.

Quote:
I am completely aware that, ultimately, the officials at the game are responsible for such situations. However, the officials shouldn't be expected to be scorekeeper trainers, too.
No, but we're the ones who usually end up in the soup once such things happen. There's no excuse for not doing some preventive officiating in such a situation.

Good luck with it.
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Old Fri Dec 07, 2001, 12:13pm
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I do tons of rec leagues and we have the "no one at the table" problem a lot. Prior to the game, we tell each coach to get someone for the table. Sometimes, a coach will say he has no one to do it. I tell him that's OK, and I will just flip the clock on at the beginning and let it run, no one will keep score and I will keep the fouls in my head. Strangely enough, he always finds somebody.
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