NCAAA Final

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by earmitage

You say this is an "Official's Forum." Is it associated or linked to any official organization of officials or is it a site where a guy or a group of guys who officiate, either part time or full time, wanted to chat with their buddies, and decided to start a forum?

It is a site started by officials for officials. I have no idea why it was created, but it was created for officials. There is a paid site associated with this board and the rules are set by the owners. This site is to mainly talk rules and officiating situations and philosophies. We are not here to rip on officials without a discussion of a rule or philosophies. If you are fan and you have a legitimate question or want clarification I know myself and others are glad to answer your questions. If you are hear to rip on the officials based on things you will never understand and do not want to understand, it is time to leave right now.

Peace

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Junker

That is exactly what this is. Fans that want to whine are not treated very well around here. We hear enough of that from the stands in the regular season. Like I said, we welcome intelligent questions, but if you want to whine about how the game was called, find a place where the rest of the Florida fans are talking and go there.

Can you recommend any good non-officiating sites that welcome open and honest discussion? What would be the top 3?

[JRutledge]

I doubt many of us even look at sites like that.

Peace

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you are fan and you have a legitimate question or want clarification I know myself and others are glad to answer your questions.

Peace

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

[Camron Rust]

What's sad about this whole thread is that the orignal poster, while perhaps not tactfully stated, really did have a valid point.

I actually counted 2-3 plays in the first half where I, based on the types of fouls that were being called, expected Oden to pick up a foul but he did not. Far less contact was called a foul against the Florida big men but Oden was permitted more contact. Why? I have no idea. I'll make no claim that there was anything sinister behind it.....it may have merely been due to the position the refs had....but Oden did get lucky to avoid a whistle a few times.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Yes, I just registered. The site was brought to my attention by a friend just a few minutes ago who was banned from the site for expressing his opinion on the final game last night. He said he had registered as BC22. Is dissent not allowed on this site?

By the way, challenging the integrity of an official is not considered "dissent." Your friend accused the official in question (whom none of us here know personally, most likely) of directly, consciously, and purposefully favoring Greg Oden over the other players in the game. It's calling him a cheater, and without evidence, that kind of thing doesn't go over too well around here.
Banned? I have my doubts.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What's sad about this whole thread is that the orignal poster, while perhaps not tactfully stated, really did have a valid point.

I actually counted 2-3 plays in the first half where I, based on the types of fouls that were being called, expected Oden to pick up a foul but he did not. Far less contact was called a foul against the Florida big men but Oden was permitted more contact. Why? I have no idea. I'll make no claim that there was anything sinister behind it.....it may have merely been due to the position the refs had....but Oden did get lucky to avoid a whistle a few times.

Not really, apparently he got worn out from playing too many minutes.

[ChuckElias]

Since this seems to be the Official Fanboy Stupid Comment Thread, I'll post this tidbit here. Those of you who know me know that I have no life and so I get great joy from dumb things like the Tony Kornheiser radio show. I love the show, I love PTI, I love Tony and Wilbon together (not that there's anything wrong with that).

This morning on Tony's radio show, Wilbon said that was "angry" about the officiating in the Final Four because "the officials are too stupid" to let the big men play. I was shocked by that, b/c I don't remember ever hearing Wilbon make comments about any sports' officials being stupid.

Don't look for Wilbon on PTI tonight, tho. He's playing golf in Arizona.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

This is taught at all levels, not just Duke and not just college. The point is to have the offense not run over someone. How about teaching the offense how to shoot a jump shot?

Currently the rule says if the defensive player gets into position before the offensive player leaves the floor, the offense is responsible for the contact. How would you like to see the rule changed?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

Basketball is a contact sport (sometimes a collision sport). If you do not want to run into a player that is standing in your way of the basket, learn to dribble round someone or shoot over them. The rules are not going to change anytime soon if you ask me on this issue. BTW, most players do not want to take a charge. So this is not a major issue.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket.

Excellent strategy. I'm with you so far.

it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne.

It can be dangerous to launch yourself airborne and forward if there's a player in the way, or if a player steps under you while you're airborne. It's less dangerous to simply jump straight up within your own vertical plane. So I would disagree with your generalization, but I agree that certain plays can be dangerous, especially when a defender steps into the shooter's path after the shooter is already airborne.

An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender.

Nonesense. If the offensive player has the hops to jump over a defender, more power to him. No player (offense or defense) should be allowed to push another player and displace him.

Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable?

No. The rules specifically say (the high school rule is 10-6, the NCAA rule is 10-21) that the dribbler has the greater responsibility in contact situations. This is because the dribbler has to EXPECT to be guarded. Once the dribbler leaves the floor, no player may move into his path. But until he becomes airborne, the ballhandler has the greater responsibility to avoid contact on a legal defender.

I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

Why exactly? If the defender gets to the spot first and is not moving forward when contact occurs -- charge!

[Junker]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Fair enough. Here is one I have wondered about for years. Coach K at Duke for years has chosen to use the charge as a means to draw fouls and prevent opponents from driving too aggressively to the basket. However, it seems the line has been crossed in that too often it has become dangerous for an offensive player to go airborne. The rule, as originally introduced, makes sense. An offensive player should never be allowed to drive over a defender. Shouldn't the benefit of the doubt be given to the offensive player since he is the one most vulnerable? I would love to see more blocking calls made rather than charging calls.

This is a good, legitimate question and you've gotten some good answers. Personally, I like the rules as they are. Playing defense is hard enough without making it more difficult to draw a charge. The key thing to remember is that every player, offensive and defensive have the legal right to their spot on the floor. What determines a block vs. a charge is whether or not the defensive player has established legal guarding position. To put it in overly simplified terms, the player responsible for the contact should get the foul.

[FrankHtown]

Originally Posted by earmitage

Can you recommend any good non-officiating sites that welcome open and honest discussion? What would be the top 3?

I'm sure Oprah, Dr. Phil, and "The People's Court" would be in my top 3.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Junker

This is a good, legitimate question and you've gotten some good answers. Personally, I like the rules as they are. Playing defense is hard enough without making it more difficult to draw a charge. The key thing to remember is that every player, offensive and defensive have the legal right to their spot on the floor. What determines a block vs. a charge is whether or not the defensive player has established legal guarding position. To put it in overly simplified terms, the player responsible for the contact should get the foul.

I agree with you 100%. The player responsible for the contact should get the foul. It appears that a disproportionate number of calls have been made in favor of the defensive player even when the defensive player has NOT established position, imo.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by earmitage

I agree with you 100%. The player responsible for the contact should get the foul. It appears that a disproportionate number of calls have been made in favor of the defensive player even when the defensive player has NOT established position, imo.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion. I can assure you that when you are actually on the floor, things look entirely different. Officials are taught to referee the defense so while you, as a fan are probably watching the ball, the official is watching the defender get into position. Before I was an official, I was very much a fan. I'd sit in the upper deck yelling and screaming about calls. Then, after the first minute of my first game, I realized that it was much different when you are actually out there and I didn't have any idea what I was yelling about.