A Play I can not find in rules or case... Actually happened.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by eroe39
Throw-in violation.

Jeeze, talk about short and sweet.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Self
That is not one of the 3 warnings that are covered by the rules. 10-1-5B covers delay but it is used after timeouts or for free throws. It also would result in a Technical.

Thank you. This is what I have been saying along. Very simple.

[Self]

I received my answer from Peter Webb(President IAABO) Rules committee and also a reclarification from Roger Mactavish(IAABO Rules Examination). It is a violation per rule 7-5-7. I read it and fianlly can agree 100% that this covers the situation.

"After a goal or awarded goal, the team not credited with the score shall make a throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point OUTSIDE the endline. Any player may make a direct throw-in or may pass along the endline to a teammate outside the boundary line."

By the rules, this situation is a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Self
I received my answer from Peter Webb(President IAABO) Rules committee and also a reclarification from Roger Mactavish(IAABO Rules Examination). It is a violation per rule 7-5-7. I read it and fianlly can agree 100% that this covers the situation.

"After a goal or awarded goal, the team not credited with the score shall make a throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point OUTSIDE the endline. Any player may make a direct throw-in or may pass along the endline to a teammate outside the boundary line."

By the rules, this situation is a violation.

Yep -- it's a violation of 7-5-7. Now, where can I find the penalty for violating that rule?

The only "penalties" I can find relating to throw-ins are in 9-2. And, I don't see "not going out of bounds" listed as one of the criteria.

So, pending some "official" word, I think it's 2-3. You and Mark are free to call it a violation. I'll wait a while on that.

[Self]

9-2-2...Fail to pass the ball directly INTO the court so it touches..... Key word being into, since you must be out of bounds to pass it into.

9-2-6... Touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player. Well if A1 is throwing the ball he becomes the thrower. So if he is on the court throwing it he is the fisrt to touch it in the court.

No to be sarcastic but, this is a little amazing to me that we still have people saying this is not a violation. We have had the highest people in IAABO and NFHS say that it is a violation and point numerous rules that the decision is based on. I don't understand now why we still can't agree that it is.

What rules are the doubters using to say it is not a violation?

[daves]

I would start the 5 second count in a varsity game and whistle the violation when it occurs. In the lower level games blow the whistle and reset. I know this sounds like a double standard but I believe in officiating to the level of the players.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Self
9-2-2...Fail to pass the ball directly INTO the court so it touches..... Key word being into, since you must be out of bounds to pass it into.

9-2-6... Touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player. Well if A1 is throwing the ball he becomes the thrower. So if he is on the court throwing it he is the fisrt to touch it in the court.

No to be sarcastic but, this is a little amazing to me that we still have people saying this is not a violation. We have had the highest people in IAABO and NFHS say that it is a violation and point numerous rules that the decision is based on. I don't understand now why we still can't agree that it is.

What rules are the doubters using to say it is not a violation?

The rule the doubters are using is 4-41-3. That is, the throw-in hasn't started, so it can't be a violation.

Suppose, in the original example, A1 threw to A2 who then took the ball out of bounds for a "throw-in." Would you have a violation? Why not? How is that different from the original play?

If B requests TO before A has released the ball, do you grant it? If it's a "throw-in" then you can't. Have you started your count?

I agree that A "did something wrong." What they did wrong was violate a rule that, IMHO, doesn't have a specific penalty.

If I were on the rules committee (and I'm not), I'd vote for a "do-over" with a caution (to avoid using the word "warning") that if it happens again it could be construed as a delay of game (10-1-5b). I think that's what Dick Knox was referring to.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong or is other than what the NFHS wants. Just that I'll wait for the rules committee to resolve the issue (so far, Dick is on one side and Mary is on the other).

[DrC.]

I can't believe this post made 5 pages. I usually agree with most things bktballref says, but not this time.

1) We do not have any of the 3 warnings.
2) The 5 second count really does not start until a player in the area picks up the ball and makes it live. If nobody comes to the ball, then start your count
3) But in this post, a player made the ball live illegally.
THIS IS A CLEAR CUT THROW IN VIOLATION.

Why are some of you trying to bail out the team that is inbounding the ball. They blew it, not you. So blow your whistle and move on. This is so easy, not exactly a block/charge call that you need to sell. I can't even see a coach arguing that fact.

With saying that, I am talking about any competitive league.
(School level games (7th grade and above), Travel games, Adult leagues..)

If this is true Rec ball, where they do not know the rules, then you can just blow the whistle and have them re-administer the throw-in. You are more of a teacher at that level.

Just my 2 cents. BTW, what can you buy for just 2 cents anymore???

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by DrC.
I can't believe this post made 5 pages. I usually agree with most things bktballref says, but not this time.

1) We do not have any of the 3 warnings.
2) The 5 second count really does not start until a player in the area picks up the ball and makes it live. If nobody comes to the ball, then start your count
3) But in this post, a player made the ball live illegally.
THIS IS A CLEAR CUT THROW IN VIOLATION.

Why are some of you trying to bail out the team that is inbounding the ball. They blew it, not you. So blow your whistle and move on. This is so easy, not exactly a block/charge call that you need to sell. I can't even see a coach arguing that fact.

With saying that, I am talking about any competitive league.
(School level games (7th grade and above), Travel games, Adult leagues..)

If this is true Rec ball, where they do not know the rules, then you can just blow the whistle and have them re-administer the throw-in. You are more of a teacher at that level.

Just my 2 cents. BTW, what can you buy for just 2 cents anymore???

My good Doctor,If you re-read what BBRef had to say,you will find that what BBRef does is not what he would like to do.He has been instructed through Dick Knox of the Fed rules committee and his state governing body that he has to call the play that way.No other option is available to him.Now Georgia has issued a completely different ruling.The rulings conflict,but officials in each state have to call it the way they have been instructed.The rest of the world does not have a definitive answer,as the the rulebook doesn't cover it.They can call it several different ways,depending how they interpret the rule.That's all that Bob Jenkins was saying.I personally agree with Bob's way to call it,but that doesn't make me right.It also doesn't make me wrong,until an official Fed ruling comes to my area that says different,or a national Fed ruling is issued.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 13th, 2001 at 02:39 PM]

[Self]

Mary Struckhoff of NFHS agree with the IAABO ruling. She is National Federation. I spoke with her and this is how the NFHS rules the situation. Her comment was made to see if Ga. had an interpretation that was different. We are not suppose to contact NFHS directly only our State interpreter. I found a loop hole to get to her directly. I still am not sure how this could be ruled anything but a violation. All the rules given seem to ouline it pretty good.

"All interpretations for high school basketball should be run through the Georgia state association.Â* However, I do agree with the interpretation below (#4), but you may want to contact the basketball liaison at the Georgia office for their official interpretation."

Mary Struckhoff
Assistant Director - Basketball Editor/National Interpreter
National High School Federation

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Self
Mary Struckhoff of NFHS agree with the IAABO ruling. She is National Federation. I spoke with her and this is how the NFHS rules the situation. Her comment was made to see if Ga. had an interpretation that was different. We are not suppose to contact NFHS directly only our State interpreter. I found a loop hole to get to her directly. I still am not sure how this could be ruled anything but a violation. All the rules given seem to ouline it pretty good.

"All interpretations for high school basketball should be run through the Georgia state association.Â* However, I do agree with the interpretation below (#4), but you may want to contact the basketball liaison at the Georgia office for their official interpretation."

Mary Struckhoff
Assistant Director - Basketball Editor/National Interpreter
National High School Federation

The problem is that Dick Knox who is also on the Fed rules committee has issued a contradictory interpretation for North Carolina,that now HAS to be followed in North Carolina.Your ruling is only valid in Georgia.There has never been an official ruling issued to the rest of us that will cover our respective areas.IAABO interpretations are not valid in my area,only Fed interpretations,or an interpretation handed down by my local governing body.I have been given neither yet,and I suspect neither has anyone else outside of NC and Georgia.To sum up,we have not yet been given direction on how to handle this call,like you have.Therefore,we can interpret it a different way until we do receive a firm directive.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by daves
I would start the 5 second count in a varsity game and whistle the violation when it occurs. In the lower level games blow the whistle and reset. I know this sounds like a double standard but I believe in officiating to the level of the players.

daves, the problem with that is that a lot can happen in 5 seconds.

Let's say there's 8 seconds left in a tie game.

A1 grabs the ball. You're counting "1!"

A1 throws a long pass to A2. "2!"

A2 shoots a 3! "3!"

Shot is good! "4!"

B1 has the ball for a throw-in. You reach "5."

Now you have a helluva a situation to straighten out. You're going to take away the 3 that would probably win the game for A and give the ball to B, under their basket with 3 seconds remaining.

Of the 3 possibilities, this would be my least favorite. With the warning, there's no turnover and there's no chance of having to correct a huge mess as with the 5 second count.

Fortunately, I've been told how to handle it and don't have to worry about this play.

[Mark Dexter]

Great example on the five count, but there's only one problem. In a situation where A wanted the clock to stop and has no timeouts, they can simply throw the ball up-court and get the clock stopped immediately plus have the ball back - sure beats letting 5 run off the clock then having a turnover.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The problem is that Dick Knox who is also on the Fed rules committee has issued a contradictory interpretation for North Carolina,that now HAS to be followed in North Carolina.

This situation came up last year on one of the discussion boards and in our local clinics. I emailed Dick and he gave me instructions that it should be a delay of game warning. To my knowledge, he hasn't issued a statewide memo or letter covering this situation. He just gave his interpretation, just as Mary gave her interpretation to Self.

His reasoning was that the 5 second count, although probably it provides the closest rule basis, would create too much of a problem with all the things that might happen during the 5 seconds.

It's not a throw-in violation because the throw-in hasn't began.

Although it doesn't explicitly meet any of the delay of game warnings, the offense is indeed delaying the game because they have not inbounded the ball as required. But that it not a throw-in violation.

BTW, the ball is live as soon as it's at the disposal. You don't make it become live illegally by then dribbling or passing it up the floor.

"Thank you very much! That's it for me!"

"Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has left the building!"

[Self]

You Said:
"BTW, the ball is live as soon as it's at the disposal. You don't make it become live illegally by then dribbling or passing it up the floor."

Well tehn as soon as A grabs teh ball through the net it is at his disposal. He can step out of bounds and make a legal throw in or throw it directly to a teammate. Either way he has become the thrower. And by rule teh thower must pass the ball directly into the court or to teammate outside boundary line. Also he cannot be the first to touch on the court. So this would be a violation.