Backing in

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by bellnier

Wow...2 out of 4 usefull answers (that's 50% for you refs)...is that some kind of record?

Classic laymens mistake, the 2 that were not useful to you were not addressing your question. That does not mean the officials were incorrect, they just weren't addressing what you wanted them to address.
However that does make you 1 for 2 (50%).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

Classic laymens mistake, the 2 that were not useful to you were not addressing your question. That does not mean the officials were incorrect, they just weren't addressing what you wanted them to address.
However that does make you 1 for 2 (50%).

Yup, they were obviously watching off ball.

[jeffpea]

This exact scenario (offensive post backing down a defender toward the basket) has bothered me during the last few weeks of the NCAA tourney....It has begun to drive me crazy when a defender is called for a foul by body bumping, using an arm bar, or putting two hands on the offensive post player after he receives the ball and the offensive post player is allowed to back down the defender into the lane. Case in point - Florida 54 Butler 54 3:21 (2nd half)...Horford catches ball in post; 1st power dribble/bump (nothing); 2nd power dribble/bump (should have been PC); 3rd power dribble/bump/shot (defender realizes no call coming - tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT).

IMHO, if your gonna call the defensive foul - THEN YOU HAVE TO CALL A PC ON THE OFFENSIVE POST PLAYER FOR DISPLACEMENT! It gives an unfair advantage to call one without the other...

I believe we will see a POE next year from Hank Nichols and the NCAA regarding displacement by a post player with the ball.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by jeffpea

Case in point - Florida 54 Butler 54 3:21 (2nd half)...Horford catches ball in post; 1st power dribble/bump (nothing); 2nd power dribble/bump (should have been PC); 3rd power dribble/bump/shot (defender realizes no call coming - tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT).

1st Power dribble/bump - Defender is standing with two arms on Horford's back and his knee up between Horford's legs (no LGP), 2nd power dribble/bump - Still no established LGP,
3rd power dribble/bump/shot defender tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT

There whould be a lot more PC fouls - if the defender established LGP first and most defenders do not do that - while the are bumping and grinding for position they are all up in the offensive players back and leaning on them when they recieve the pass, then they do not establish LGP so they earn that PC foul.

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

These are two different situations handled differently.
on the rebounding there is a lot of contact true, but does that contact displace and result in an advantage for the player initiatiing the contact.
A lot of what you see is a big player just out jumping another big player for the ball.
As long as the player on the outside doesn't initiate the contact and displace the inside player to get the ball. it is just inadvertant contact. It doesn't mean anything as long as everyone is going straight up and we have no advantage it is all good.

here is a question for you
If an offensive player jumps forward toward the basket to take a jump shot and the defender is between him and the basket jumps forward to defend against the shot and their is minimal torso and hip contact (with no contact above the shoulders) as the offensive player makes the jump shot who is the foul on?

I understand the rebounding contact. But what I’m referring to is the contact prior to rebounding. Situation: A2 and B2 are post player under the board. A1 shoots a perimeter shot. A2 and B2 are both facing the basket with A2 just behind and off the outer shoulder of B2. As the shot goes though the air B2 brings out just a little bit of elbow and start pushing A2 out and away from the basket. He’s not elbowing A2 or anything like that. Just back pushing. This ends up giving B2 a much better advantage at getting the rebound than A2. It seems that who ever is the strongest wins the position. I see this all the time but rarely gets called. By definition in the rules, I believe that this should be a foul. However, it appears that this is a one of those times when the refs are to “lighten up” on the contact rules as to let the big boys bump a little. I certainly don’t know this for sure. Just learning.
To answer you question, I believe we have a personal foul on the defender IF the contact disrupted the shot because he moved toward the shooter. You stated “minimal torso and hip contact (with no contact above the shoulders)”. So I would think that no disadvantage was gained, therefore a no-call. IMO.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Vinski

This is an excellent question. I see this all the time also and wonder why it almost never gets called. In fact there is a ton of aggressive contact under the boards with the big post players that rarely gets called. Many times during the battles for rebounding position the bigger guy will “maneuver” the other guy out to gain a better position for the rebound. This is obviously a push, but hardly ever gets called unless it’s really harsh or there is some holding. What guidelines are used to determine when enough is enough with the pushing and jostling under the boards?

Just watch Horford in the post for Florida. He commits an offensive foul all the time on his post ups when he backs down his opponent. It's a good example.

[OHBBREF]

I will not disagree that this "could" be a foul but now we are into another area of officiating that the public (and some officials) are not aware of. The patient whistle - seeing the whole play, then put air in your whistle.
A2 and B2 are jostling for rebounding posistion on the bench side of the basket where the shot came from B2 pushes a little harder on A2 and gets a slightly better postion for the rebound - but the ball hits the rim and goes long to the opposite side of the basket ? Do you call a foul?

Same scenario - except this time B2 backs A2 out about 10ft from where he was when the shot was taken and the ball clanks on the rim and comes right to B2? Do you call a foul?

last weekend while doing an AAU game training a younger official we had this play: A1's Shot goes up from three point area Free throw line extended on the strong side (three man crew so you have lead and trail on this side of the floor) the young guy is the C on the other side.
A3 and B3 are jostling on the weak side B3 goes up and forward clearly displacing A3 whistle blows as the ball bounds over the top of the backboard and out of play. Was there a foul ? do you put a whistle on it?

Now you are reading and considering these plays as they unfold in front of you on the screen, add several other players in your primary area of coverage and full speed. then you make the call.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Vinski

To answer you question, I believe we have a personal foul on the defender IF the contact disrupted the shot because he moved toward the shooter. You stated “minimal torso and hip contact (with no contact above the shoulders)”. So I would think that no disadvantage was gained, therefore a no-call. IMO.

Correct even though there was contact, the contact did not constitute a foul.

"Basketball is a contact sport - all contact is not a foul - all fouls involve contact, it the job of the official to determine which is which."
Carroll Cosby

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

A3 and B3 are jostling on the weak side B3 goes up and forward clearly displacing A3 whistle blows as the ball bounds over the top of the backboard and out of play.
1) Was there a foul ?
2) do you put a whistle on it?

1)Yes
2)Sometimes.

Weren't expecting that answer to #2, were you?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1)Yes
2)Sometimes.

Weren't expecting that answer to #2, were you?

Wasn't what the proctor was looking for - but it is not wrong - we'll give you half credit.

But it is good that Vinsik sees that also, because two officials can see the same play different ways.
or different ways at different times

Even though we wear it it ins't all black and white

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Wasn't what the proctor was looking for - but it is not wrong - we'll give you half credit.

Well, I'll give you no credit for not understanding at all what I'm talking about.

Others will.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Just watch Horford in the post for Florida. He commits an offensive foul all the time on his post ups when he backs down his opponent. It's a good example.

...foggy... not sure of what game is was but could have been Florida... anyway, the defender fouled out on what appeared to be exactly what you describe... of course, the TV view is not the same as the official's view but I was perplexed at what the defender could possibly have done wrong? Anyone else remember that and can help me understand what would turn that play into a foul on the defender?

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

...foggy... not sure of what game is was but could have been Florida... anyway, the defender fouled out on what appeared to be exactly what you describe... of course, the TV view is not the same as the official's view but I was perplexed at what the defender could possibly have done wrong? Anyone else remember that and can help me understand what would turn that play into a foul on the defender?

1st Power dribble/bump - Defender is standing with two arms on Horford's back and his knee up between Horford's legs (no LGP), 2nd power dribble/bump - Still no established LGP,
3rd power dribble/bump/shot defender tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

1st Power dribble/bump - Defender is standing with two arms on Horford's back and his knee up between Horford's legs (no LGP), 2nd power dribble/bump - Still no established LGP,
3rd power dribble/bump/shot defender tries flop and reaches on shot - foul and 1 FT

There whould be a lot more PC fouls - if the defender established LGP first and most defenders do not do that - while the are bumping and grinding for position they are all up in the offensive players back and leaning on them when they recieve the pass, then they do not establish LGP so they earn that PC foul.

Watch the post play a little more closely...there is a reason why defenders use their arms, legs, bodies, etc. to "wall off" a post player with the ball - it's because those are the only means they have to hold their ground. Once the ball is entered into the post, the VAST MAJORITY of contact is initiated by the offensive player.

When contact is initiated that creates an advantage, it MUST be called a foul. Traditionally, the "hand-checks", illegal screens, block/charge-type plays are called rather easily. The contact that occurs in the post (both before and after the ball is entered) has not been called in the same manner as other types of contact - probably because it IS more difficult to officiate. The most recent POE regarding contact in the post has primarily dealt with defensive players restricting an offensive players' movement. I predict that the next POE regarding post play contact will call for enforcement of an offensive player displacing the defender during a power dribble/move to the basket.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by bellnier

Wow...2 out of 4 usefull answers (that's 50% for you refs)...is that some kind of record?

Actually, when Padgett's not around (and OS and a couple of other trolls) our percentages go way up. Even Padgett has his uses, though. He's great at fashion shows, if there are fishnets in use.