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Old Mon Mar 26, 2007, 02:36pm
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Backing in

Hi. Question from a non-referee here. Watching NCAA tournament I (sometimes) see low post dribbler back in to defender with some displacement, but I can't recall any whistles. What exactly is the rule? How much displacement is allowed before a foul is called? What tell-tale signs are there that a defender is flopping in order to try to draw a foul? Thanks. I'll hang up and listen...
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Old Mon Mar 26, 2007, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellnier
What tell-tale signs are there that a defender is flopping in order to try to draw a foul? ...
That loud grunt and a body on the floor. kind of sounds like a backhand in womens tennis match! that is 99 out of a 100 times going to be a flop.

The rules are not different but the emphasis is different from Men's to Women's - Womens specifically uses displacement as a definition and point of emphasis.
If that kind of back down happens in a womens game there is going to be some kind of call. Usually the defender will put the double arm bar on the dribbler or fail to get legal guarding position by putting the knee up between the offensive players legs before the charge is called.
the call revolves around the defender having legal guarding position and there is only one way to establish it, but many ways to lose once you have it.
I think it should be similar in the mens game but I will let someone working in the mens end deal with that.
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Old Mon Mar 26, 2007, 09:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellnier
How much displacement is allowed before a foul is called?

42.73% is the rule in NF.
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Old Mon Mar 26, 2007, 10:45pm
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9 times out of ten, the defender backs away rather than letting himself get pushed down. If he holds his ground, then he's more likely to get the charge when he gets pushed backward.
To catch a flop, the only way I know for sure is to see when player starts falling. Otherwise, you have to guess at the amount of force used in comparison with the velocity of the fall. It's not perfect, so if the defender at least waits until there's contact, I'm more likely than not to have a call.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 02:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
42.73% is the rule in NF.
In metric that would be a whole number, 41% exactly So, why don't you switch?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 07:12am
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Wink

Wow...2 out of 4 usefull answers (that's 50% for you refs)...is that some kind of record?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 08:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
9 times out of ten, the defender backs away rather than letting himself get pushed down. If he holds his ground, then he's more likely to get the charge when he gets pushed backward.
After obtaining LGP, isn't the defender allowed to go backwards and still have LGP?

Does that, then, decrease his likelyhood of getting a charge call then?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 09:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachP
After obtaining LGP, isn't the defender allowed to go backwards and still have LGP?

Does that, then, decrease his likelyhood of getting a charge call then?
LGP prevents a blocking call, it doesn't necessarily force a PC call.
It decreases but doesn't go away completely. If the defender is stepping backwards, then he's voluntarily giving up his position. This is only a general rule, however, and is not definitive nor absolute.
If the ball handler starts backing in, and the defender falls down, it's usually a foul; unless something makes me think the defender flopped.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg-italy
In metric that would be a whole number, 41% exactly So, why don't you switch?
To quote an old television commercial - "I'd rather fight than switch".
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 10:26am
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Originally Posted by bellnier
Wow...2 out of 4 usefull answers (that's 50% for you refs)...is that some kind of record?
Gee - sorry. I guess we'll all have to take a pay cut. BTW - you misspelled "useful". Is that some kind of record?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
LGP prevents a blocking call, it doesn't necessarily force a PC call.
It decreases but doesn't go away completely. If the defender is stepping backwards, then he's voluntarily giving up his position. This is only a general rule, however, and is not definitive nor absolute.
If the ball handler starts backing in, and the defender falls down, it's usually a foul; unless something makes me think the defender flopped.
Sitch:
A1 has just rec'd the ball in the post facing away from basket. B1 is already in LGP behind him. A1 starts bumping/backing B1 towards the hoop. B1 keeps taking the bumps but maintaining LGP. (B1 is giving up position, but not LGP).
A1 scores, no fouls.

So, is what you are saying, there is no PC foul UNLESS A1 physically knocks B1 "out of" LGP?

I think I'm finally comprehending....!
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 10:41am
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Honestly, it's a judgment call. If I think A1 knocks B1 backwards, I'll call the push. The problem is, when B1 is stepping backwards, it's hard to tell if it was the push that knocked him back.
I'm more likely than not to call this, because at the high school level I work, the defenders are good at standing their ground. I'm only explaining how what looks like a back down can sometimes be no-called on games we see on television.
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 11:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellnier
Wow...2 out of 4 usefull answers (that's 50% for you refs)...is that some kind of record?
Actually your response made it 2 out of 5 (that's 40% for you monkeys...errr...fans)
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 11:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellnier
Hi. Question from a non-referee here. Watching NCAA tournament I (sometimes) see low post dribbler back in to defender with some displacement, but I can't recall any whistles. What exactly is the rule? How much displacement is allowed before a foul is called? What tell-tale signs are there that a defender is flopping in order to try to draw a foul? Thanks. I'll hang up and listen...
This is an excellent question. I see this all the time also and wonder why it almost never gets called. In fact there is a ton of aggressive contact under the boards with the big post players that rarely gets called. Many times during the battles for rebounding position the bigger guy will “maneuver” the other guy out to gain a better position for the rebound. This is obviously a push, but hardly ever gets called unless it’s really harsh or there is some holding. What guidelines are used to determine when enough is enough with the pushing and jostling under the boards?
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Old Tue Mar 27, 2007, 11:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinski
This is an excellent question. I see this all the time also and wonder why it almost never gets called. In fact there is a ton of aggressive contact under the boards with the big post players that rarely gets called. Many times during the battles for rebounding position the bigger guy will “maneuver” the other guy out to gain a better position for the rebound. This is obviously a push, but hardly ever gets called unless it’s really harsh or there is some holding. What guidelines are used to determine when enough is enough with the pushing and jostling under the boards?
These are two different situations handled differently.
on the rebounding there is a lot of contact true, but does that contact displace and result in an advantage for the player initiatiing the contact.
A lot of what you see is a big player just out jumping another big player for the ball.
As long as the player on the outside doesn't initiate the contact and displace the inside player to get the ball. it is just inadvertant contact. It doesn't mean anything as long as everyone is going straight up and we have no advantage it is all good.

here is a question for you
If an offensive player jumps forward toward the basket to take a jump shot and the defender is between him and the basket jumps forward to defend against the shot and their is minimal torso and hip contact (with no contact above the shoulders) as the offensive player makes the jump shot who is the foul on?
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