Alternate Official

[SCBroncos]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I understand your point, but as long as the NFHS rules have the following casebook play, your opinion is going to be secondary to the correct application of the rules. The first thing that officials have to do is follow the rules.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

Good point NV. I guess that makes it even more important that if you do have a double whistle, don't give a prelim signal, come together and discuss the situation, and defer to the primary official or the one with a better angle. Then at least you can avoid the double foul and the coaches wouldn't be the wiser since they don't know what either official was going to call anyway.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Let me rephrase for those who live in Rio Linda.

The Rio Linda's JV coach last year earned himself a nice T from me. He said I was the worst ever. But not so nicely......

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

I disagree. You can't disallow the officials call. One of the coaches is not gonna allow that. This is only acceptable in NCAA women's from my understanding.

Okay, we can go POI if you are sure the player hadn't shot or release the ball. Although, I'm not quite sure how you can determine that because if you rule a charge, then it's no basket, if you rule a block, count the basket. We're in some messy territory here, I would punt, not beat myself up over if it is or isn't and go AP. Next time let the primary take the call, have a patient whistle.

Man ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You're just kicking rules all over the place and your making yourself and your crew look like a bunch of bumbling idiots, especially if you have a coach who has half a brain. Believe it or not, this situation has probably come up in one of these coaches game, and a REAL official would've explained the situation BY RULE, CORRECTLY. If it was a blarge, or if it was a double foul, then I'm sure a REAL official has explained the situation to the coach, CORRECTLY. Now if you come to him with this B.S., you're going to bring a heap of problems on yourself and your crew for the rest of the game, and after that game. That coach or coaches will be sending a tape of your incident to the state assocation or superervisor, and you're going to look like the biggest jackass on the face of this earth. As a matter of fact, you and your crew will probably be made part of training tape on HOW NOT TO HANDLE A BLARGE OR DOUBLE FOUL SITUATION. JMHO.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Man ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You're just kicking rules all over the place and your making yourself and your crew look like a bunch of bumbling idiots, especially if you have a coach who has half a brain. Believe it or not, this situation has probably come up in one of these coaches game, and a REAL official would've explained the situation BY RULE, CORRECTLY. If it was a blarge, or if it was a double foul, then I'm sure a REAL official has explained the situation to the coach, CORRECTLY. Now if you come to him with this B.S., you're going to bring a heap of problems on yourself and your crew for the rest of the game, and after that game. That coach or coaches will be sending a tape of your incident to the state assocation or superervisor, and you're going to look like the biggest jackass on the face of this earth. As a matter of fact, you and your crew will probably be made part of training tape on HOW NOT TO HANDLE A BLARGE OR DOUBLE FOUL SITUATION. JMHO.

Joe you are little harsh, but exactly correct. You can't be making stuff up especially in block/charge situation like that. Either no call the damn thing or go P.C. or block. If we have double whistles and L comes out with a charge, and T or Slot has Charge then go AP and get the crew out of hot water. It happened, we have a double foul and it's black white in the book how to handle. It. Joe I really agree with what you said in your post. Would make an interesting training tape, but that's how we all learn..

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by TRef21

Joe you are little harsh, but exactly correct. You can't be making stuff up especially in block/charge situation like that. Either no call the damn thing or go P.C. or block. If we have double whistles and L comes out with a charge, and T or Slot has Charge then go AP and get the crew out of hot water. It happened, we have a double foul and it's black white in the book how to handle. It. Joe I really agree with what you said in your post. Would make an interesting training tape, but that's how we all learn..

Why would we go to the AP on a double foul, unless the ball is clearly in air? And my contention is if it's that close to call the double foul, chances are the offensive player still has the ball in his hand. That's my problem with OS's post, he's adament about going to the arrow, and that is not correct procedure for a double foul. That was changed last year, or the year before, I'm not sure when, but I know the AP arrow is not the correct call, regardless of how much hot water the crew is in.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Why would we go to the AP on a double foul, unless the ball is clearly in air? And my contention is if it's that close to call the double foul, chances are the offensive player still has the ball in his hand. That's my problem with OS's post, he's adament about going to the arrow, and that is not correct procedure for a double foul. That was changed last year, or the year before, I'm not sure when, but I know the AP arrow is not the correct call, regardless of how much hot water the crew is in.

You have to go AP if he misses. If he makes it, as you know, score it and resume play with a throw in anywhere along the endline for B.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TRef21

You have to go AP if he misses. If he makes it, as you know, score it and resume play with a throw in anywhere along the endline for B.

Only if the ball is in the air before the contact. If the ball is not in the air before contact, then you give the ball back to the team that had the ball when the double foul occurred.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Only if the ball is in the air before the contact. If the ball is not in the air before contact, then you give the ball back to the team that had the ball when the double foul occurred.

yah there is still team control in the case"hence PC"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TRef21

yah there is still team control in the case"hence PC"

1. "Player control" is not required for a pc foul; in the case of an airborne shooter. This is a key difference between the FED and NCAA.
2. A PC foul is not a PC foul when it's part of a double foul; that's why the basket would count if the shot was released prior to the contact (again, a FED difference.)

[Old School]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Man ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You're just kicking rules all over the place and your making yourself and your crew look like a bunch of bumbling idiots, especially if you have a coach who has half a brain. Believe it or not, this situation has probably come up in one of these coaches game, and a REAL official would've explained the situation BY RULE, CORRECTLY. If it was a blarge, or if it was a double foul, then I'm sure a REAL official has explained the situation to the coach, CORRECTLY. Now if you come to him with this B.S., you're going to bring a heap of problems on yourself and your crew for the rest of the game, and after that game. That coach or coaches will be sending a tape of your incident to the state assocation or superervisor, and you're going to look like the biggest jackass on the face of this earth. As a matter of fact, you and your crew will probably be made part of training tape on HOW NOT TO HANDLE A BLARGE OR DOUBLE FOUL SITUATION. JMHO.

You are an idiot to post this. The rule clearly says you count the bucket if it goes in and you give it to team B. What happens if the shot doesn't go in you moron? If I count the bucket if it does go in, then I'm sure as hell not going to give the ball back to the offense if it doesn't. That's rule knowledge 101 and I didn't even have to look that up. It's AP you moron. You lose, your way is wrong. Anytime you have a referee screw up like this, you go AP. In the NBA, you go jump ball with any two players on the court. That's the rule dickhead, if you want to call it anyway different, then we will use your tape to show how not to do it.

What an idiot, you must be drinking that same kool-aide JR is on. You guys all think alike. No individual opinions out here, everybody just goes along with the flow. Even if you are wrong, you are so stupid you just continue right on off that bridge, just like the guy before you.

[TRef21]

Lets say this situation happens in Mens college game. The ball is released we have no PC. If its made Team B gets the ball along the endline if missed designated spot. Right? Now in mens college in order for it to be a PC foul the player need to have the ball. Let's say he has the ball one goes block other goes charge. Since A1 had the ball we go POI due to team control and have A inbounf the ball. Right?
Correct if im worng please. If so help me with references in the NCAA Book. I would sure hate to kick this if it happens in one my college games.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Old School

You are an idoit to post this. The rule clearly says you count the bucket if it goes in and you give it to team B. What happens if the shot doesn't go in you moron? If I count the bucket if it does go in, then I'm sure as hell not going to give the ball back to the offense if it doesn't. That's rule knowledge 101 and I didn't even have to look that up. It's AP you moron. You lose, your way is wrong. Anytime you have a referee screw up like this, you go AP. In the NBA, you go jump ball with any two players on the court. That's the rule dickhead, if you want to call it anyway different, then we will use your tape to show how not to do it.

What an idoit, you must be drinking that same kool-aide JR is on. You guys all think alike. No individual opinions out here, everybody just goes along with the flow. Even if you are wrong, you are so stupid you just continue right on off that bridge, just like the guy before you.

Thats what I said... do you agree?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TRef21

Lets say this situation happens in Mens college game. The ball is released we have no PC. If its made Team B gets the ball along the endline if missed designated spot. Right? Now in mens college in order for it to be a PC foul the player need to have the ball. Let's say he has the ball one goes block other goes charge. Since A1 had the ball we go POI due to team control and have A inbounf the ball. Right?
Correct if im worng please. If so help me with references in the NCAA Book. I would sure hate to kick this if it happens in one my college games.

Almost right. If the try is already in the air and the officials have a blarge, it is a double foul and possession is awarded with the AP arrow. In that case, Team B may not receive the ball, that one sentence of yours is not correct.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

You are an idoit to post this. The rule clearly says you count the bucket if it goes in and you give it to team B.

I'm only clarifying here so you don't confuse anyone with this. If the shot has not been released, you will not count the bucket regardless of whether it goes in, and you will give the ball back to the offense.

Also, if there is no shot involved with the block/charge play, you will also give the ball back to the offense.

Oh, and by the way, the post you're responding to didn't get anything wrong. Why don't you point, specifically, to what in that post was said incorrectly. I personally don't see anywhere in the two posts that disagree with each other, so using the word "idoit (sic)" is gratuitous and inaccurate.

[TRef21]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Almost right. If the try is already in the air and the officials have a blarge, it is a double foul and possession is awarded with the AP arrow. In that case, Team B may not receive the ball, that one sentence of yours is not correct.

thats when we go AP right? This is not like the womens where we shoot.