alternate possession

[bossref]

The lead calls a foul on blue 33 for his illegal
contact with the shooter, red 10. (ball does not go in)
The shooter retaliates by pushing blue 33.
At the same time, red 55 and blue 55 are tangled up
while positioning for the potential rebound, and
the partner calls a double foul.
About 5 seconds later, red 55 and blue 55 scream profanity
at each other and are called for double technicals.

The possession arrow now points as red's next AP.

What is correct penalty procedure (NCAA rules)
and if no freethrows for the two double foul situations,
who gets the arrow?

Would it be different in NFHS ?

[Lotto]

Originally posted by bossref
The lead calls a foul on blue 33 for his illegal
contact with the shooter, red 10. (ball does not go in)
The shooter retaliates by pushing blue 33.
At the same time, red 55 and blue 55 are tangled up
while positioning for the potential rebound, and
the partner calls a double foul.
About 5 seconds later, red 55 and blue 55 scream profanity
at each other and are called for double technicals.

The possession arrow now points as red's next AP.

What is correct penalty procedure (NCAA rules)
and if no freethrows for the two double foul situations,
who gets the arrow?

What foul (if any) did you call on Red 10 for the retaliation? If the contact was pretty much simultaneous with Blue 33's foul, then you have a third double foul. If the contact occurred after the ball was dead, then you either have nothing or a direct technical on Red 10.

Case 1: Three double fouls. No FTs (never FTs for double fouls!!) and go to the arrow, since there was no possession when the double fouls occurred.

Case 2: Nothing on Red 10. The double T goes to point of interruption, so has essentially no effect on what happens next. The other fouls are administered in the order they happened, so (assuming the foul on Blue 33 happened first) have Red 10 shoot his/her FTs with the lanes cleared and then go to the arrow for the first double foul on the two 55s.

Case 3: Direct T on Red 10. Now Blue shoots the FTs for the T with lane spaces cleared (T's get taken care of first, after which we go to point of interruption), then Red 10 shoot his/her FTs, then we resume with the arrow.

I think that covers it. I may even be close to right.

[bossref]

NFHS does not have point of interruption.
So Is arrow only affected by the last double foul?

[Hawks Coach]

If you are asking whether you flip flop the arrow a bunch of times, the answer is no. You can only go to the arrow once until you have the AP throw in. So it doesn't matter whether you have three things that cause AP throw-ins during one dead ball, or whether you have just one. It is still an AP throw-in that must be completed before you switch the arrow.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Lotto

What foul (if any) did you call on Red 10 for the retaliation? If the contact was pretty much simultaneous with Blue 33's foul, then you have a third double foul. If the contact occurred after the ball was dead, then you either have nothing or a direct technical on Red 10.

Case 1: Three double fouls. No FTs (never FTs for double fouls!!) and go to the arrow, since there was no possession when the double fouls occurred.

Case 2: Nothing on Red 10. The double T goes to point of interruption, so has essentially no effect on what happens next. The other fouls are administered in the order they happened, so (assuming the foul on Blue 33 happened first) have Red 10 shoot his/her FTs with the lanes cleared and then go to the arrow for the first double foul on the two 55s.

Case 3: Direct T on Red 10. Now Blue shoots the FTs for the T with lane spaces cleared (T's get taken care of first, after which we go to point of interruption), then Red 10 shoot his/her FTs, then we resume with the arrow.

I think that covers it. I may even be close to right.

Mmmmmmmmm I dunno....red 10 has to be whistled here for a dead ball contact foul, intentional T which is not a POI T, meaning blue is going to shoot 2 & keep the ball in midcourt.

So here's what I got under ncaam:

- Shooting foul on B33, 2 shots for R10
- Intentional T for R10 (not clear it's called here but it should be)
- R55 & B55's initial whistle is also a dead ball contact foul, intentional T's offset so no shots
- R55 & B55 then each earn their second T, see ya. Again no shots.

Bottom line: B33 shoots 2 lane cleared, any B then shoots 2 for R10's intentional foul lane cleared, blue gets the ball at midcourt. No change in arrow.

Now...where is that book....

BTW, if there's no whistle for R10's shove then we've got to decide one of the 2 T's on R55/B55 are not going to stand. In that case ignore the dead ball contact T, assess the double T and the result is B33 shoots 2 for the shooting foul lane cleared, red gets the ball at the spot via the arrow. Next arrow is blue.

Make sense?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 9th, 2004 at 08:56 PM]

[Adam]

NFHS
Red 10 is shootin two for the shooting foul on Blue 33.

Any blue is shooting two shots for the tech.

Double personal on 55's since they occurred virtually at the same time as the shooting foul.

Double techs on 55's for the profanity.

False multiples here, so I'm penalizing in the order they occurred, which leaves us with the arrow at the end for the two T's on 55's.

Then I'm telling the coaches I don't want to hear so much as "nice shot" from one team to the other.

Then I'm getting the game over with and going home to contemplate the merits of using a 3,4,5 triangle to brush my teeth.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Mmmmmmmmm I dunno....red 10 has to be whistled here for a dead ball contact foul, intentional T which is not a POI T, meaning blue is going to shoot 2 & keep the ball in midcourt.

So here's what I got under ncaam....[/B]

Oops...they got rid of the intentional T in NCAAW. I forgot it still existed in NCAAM.

[Hawks Coach]

Dan
Are you giving the ball at mid court because the double foul occurred before the INT? Why do we not end up with possession arrow off the double foul?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Dan
Are you giving the ball at mid court because the double foul occurred before the INT? Why do we not end up with possession arrow off the double foul?

Double fouls or double T's are POI in NCAA.

By taking everything as it occurred, you had a defensive foul and shots, a single intentional T with shots and ball at midcourt, offsetting intentional T's, and offsetting T's so POI would be with the single intentional T and it's penalty.

[Edited by blindzebra on Jul 10th, 2004 at 02:38 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Double fouls or double T's are POI in NCAA.

Actually, this isn't correct, BZ. It used to be that double personals went back to the team in control, and double technicals went to the POI.

This year, however, that will change and all double fouls (personal and technical) will go back to the team in control at the time of the fouls. (10-8-3)


[Edited by ChuckElias on Jul 11th, 2004 at 11:11 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
This year, however, that will change and all double fouls (personal and technical) will go back to the team in control at the time of the fouls. (2-13.7)

What's the (practical) difference?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

What's the (practical) difference?

The difference is in the following play:

A1 attempts a try. Before entering the basket, A2 and B2 are assessed direct technical fouls. The ball enters the basket.

Last year, for double Ts, you would've resumed play at the POI. But since there was no team control at the time of the fouls, you would've counted the basket and then gone to the arrow to administer the throw-in.

This year, you will count the basket and then give the ball to Team B with the right to run the endline. The rationale is that Team B has control as soon as the ball goes through the basket.

Or this play: A1 is dribbling the ball, but it is tapped away by B1. While the ball is loose, A2 and B2 are assessed technical fouls.

Last year, you would've gone to the arrow. This year, since Team A still has team control, you give the ball back to Team A.

[ChuckElias]

In case anybody cares (which I doubt), the rule citation I posted for this year's change regarding double fouls was kind of misleading. The sheet I was looking at was pointing out that there would be no reset of the shot clock on any double fouls where team control exists. So they referenced 2-13. The change regarding which team will be awarded the ball will probably show up in 10-8-3.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Dan
Are you giving the ball at mid court because the double foul occurred before the INT? Why do we not end up with possession arrow off the double foul?

I'm giving the ball at midcourt due to to single intentional foul by R10 right after the shooting foul.