Alternate Official

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Unbelievable, would have to see it to believe it! Three officials and nobody had definite knowledge in a game like that, if the ball went in. Unbelievable! Then to make matters worse, they reason that it did. They should have went jump ball on the block charge, and give both of them a foul. I think it's NCAA Women's that rules different from this being a jump or AP.

You sure about this??

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

Hold the phone! Who's got possession? If I got a block charge, who gets possession? I believe that be AP?

Probably Team A or the charger, unless the ball is away, but if it's close enough to be a blarge, then chances are the ball is still in the offensive player's hands..

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Unbelievable!

They should have went jump ball on the block charge, and give both of them a foul. I think it's NCAA Women's that rules different from this being a jump or AP.

You never have a jump ball under any ruleset. Jump balls are only held at the start of the game and before an OT.

If you ever want to grow up and be a real, live, honest-to-goodness official some day, you'll have to learn the difference between a jump ball, a held ball, and how the POI applies under different circumstances. That means buying rule books and reading them. Neither a jump ball or a held ball has any relevance at all when it comes to a blarge.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You are assuming that the try was released before the contact. That is not always the case. In fact, it is probably only the case about 25% of the time.

So you would be wrong about 75% of the time as Team A would still have team control at the time of the double foul.

So I guess the air must be a little thinner out there in Neveda because we forgot so quickly that the OP said they counted the bucket. So it would have been on the shot attempt. AP my boy. On this play, you should go AP. Don't go trying to fine a needle in the hay-stack here. Don't do it! Let it go, we already got one screw-up, let it go, jump ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

... the OP said they counted the bucket. ...

He also wrote that the officials called a blocking foul on the play. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about that!

That means that the try would not have to have been released at a the time of contact in order to count. It could have still been in the shooter's hands, but he had already begun his habitual motion which starts the act of shooting.

Of course, in order to count the ball should actually have entered the basket!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You never have a jump ball under any ruleset. Jump balls are only held at the start of the game and before an OT.

If you ever want to grow up and be a real, live, honest-to-goodness official some day, you'll have to learn the difference between a jump ball, a held ball, and how the POI applies under different circumstances. That means buying rule books and reading them. Neither a jump ball or a held ball has any relevance at all when it comes to a blarge.

I knew it wouldn't take you long to come out here and start throwing officials under the bus. Way to go JR, true to form. Jump ball, held ball, POI, AP, whatever!!!!!! We all know what to do, except maybe you know how to state it a little better than most.

Now that I got my daily insult dose from JR, I can get back to work.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Jump ball, held ball, POI, AP, whatever!!!!!!

Yeah, whatever. They're all the same to you anyway, aren't they?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

He also wrote that the officials called a blocking foul on the play. You seem to have conveniently forgotten about that!

That means that the try would not have to have been released at a the time of contact in order to count. It could have still been in the shooter's hands, but he had already begun his habitual motion which starts the act of shooting.

Of course, in order to count the ball should actually have entered the basket!

Didn't I tell you not to go there! You don't listen, do you? Don't go there! If you got a block charge sitution, one official saw it this way, the other saw it that way, that's on us. Best thing to do is not to look for trouble. You can't penalize the offensive player and then give him the ball back. To me that's just wrong, but what do I know. I know enough to leave this one along, we're going AP.

[Nevadaref]

The only thing that you know is to make something up because you don't know the applicable rules.

[SCBroncos]

Wow. Who would have thought that this little post could blow up into this...

For clarification, when the contact occurred, I'm pretty sure the ball was still in the shooters hands on the way up to the rim. To me, as a crew, you first have to make a call - it's either a block or charge. Agree on a call and move on. By calling a double foul, you are basically telling everyone in the gym that you disagree on the offending player and want a way out - the double foul and continuing from POI. Then, and most importantly, make sure one of the 3 officials knows if the ball went in, and if you are not sure, ask the scorekeeper, alternate official, your mom, whoever you need to and get it right. Awarding an unmerited basket is pretty bad...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by SCBroncos

Wow. Who would have thought that this little post could blow up into this...

For clarification, when the contact occurred, I'm pretty sure the ball was still in the shooters hands on the way up to the rim. To me, as a crew, you first have to make a call - it's either a block or charge. Agree on a call and move on. By calling a double foul, you are basically telling everyone in the gym that you disagree on the offending player and want a way out - the double foul and continuing from POI. Then, and most importantly, make sure one of the 3 officials knows if the ball went in, and if you are not sure, ask the scorekeeper, alternate official, your mom, whoever you need to and get it right. Awarding an unmerited basket is pretty bad...

I disagree. You can't disallow the officials call. One of the coaches is not gonna allow that. This is only acceptable in NCAA women's from my understanding.

Okay, we can go POI if you are sure the player hadn't shot or release the ball. Although, I'm not quite sure how you can determine that because if you rule a charge, then it's no basket, if you rule a block, count the basket. We're in some messy territory here, I would punt, not beat myself up over if it is or isn't and go AP. Next time let the primary take the call, have a patient whistle.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SCBroncos

Wow. Who would have thought that this little post could blow up into this...

For clarification, when the contact occurred, I'm pretty sure the ball was still in the shooters hands on the way up to the rim. To me, as a crew, you first have to make a call - it's either a block or charge. Agree on a call and move on. By calling a double foul, you are basically telling everyone in the gym that you disagree on the offending player and want a way out - the double foul and continuing from POI. Then, and most importantly, make sure one of the 3 officials knows if the ball went in, and if you are not sure, ask the scorekeeper, alternate official, your mom, whoever you need to and get it right. Awarding an unmerited basket is pretty bad...

I understand your point, but as long as the NFHS rules have the following casebook play, your opinion is going to be secondary to the correct application of the rules. The first thing that officials have to do is follow the rules.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I understand your point, but as long as the NFHS rules have the following casebook play, your opinion is going to be secondary to the correct application of the rules. The first thing that officials have to do is follow the rules.

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is successful. RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul. The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try and the goal is scored. Play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36)

So where would the ball go if the shot didn't go in? AP! Like I said.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

So where would the ball go if the shot didn't go in? AP! Like I said.

No, you believe that it is AP even if the try had not yet been released.

*4.19.8 SITUATION E: A1 has control of the ball in Team A's frontcourt. Post players A5 and B5 are pushing each other in an attempt to gain a more advantageous position on the block while (a) A1 is dribbling the ball; (b) the ball is in the air on a pass from A1 to A2; or (c) the ball is in the air on an unsuccessful try for goal by A1. An official calls a double personal foul on A5 and B5. RULING: In (a) and (b), Team A had control of the ball when the double foul occurred, and thus play will be resumed at the point of interruption. Team A will have a designated spot throw-in nearest the location where the ball was located when the double foul occurred. In (c), no team has control while a try for goal is in flight, and since the try was unsuccessful, there is no obvious point of interruption. Play will be resumed with an alternating possession throw-in nearest the location where the ball was located when the double foul occurred. Had the try been successful, the point of interruption would have been a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36; 6-4-3g; 7-5-9)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Didn't I tell you not to go there! You don't listen, do you? Don't go there! If you got a block charge sitution, one official saw it this way, the other saw it that way, that's on us. Best thing to do is not to look for trouble. You can't penalize the offensive player and then give him the ball back. To me that's just wrong, but what do I know. I know enough to leave this one along, we're going AP.

Let me rephrase for those who live in Rio Linda.

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't care what the rule says because I don't like what the rule says. I'm going AP regardless, just because I said so.