Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

What did I post, Nevada? I said that I would copy and paste the original post and send it to my interpreter who is on the Fed rules committee. That is exactly what I did. Several on here who are far more knowledgeble than me had disagreements on what the solution was and many cited rules and cases or stated there was not enough clarity. But, no. Asking someone with more knowledge than me is a dumb thing to do according to Nevada. Much better to figure out something on my own and assume it is correct. I guess I should have just asked you since you are smarter than everyone else combined on this board.

My state rules guy is also on the NFHS rules committee just like yours. No big deal.
I never said that it was a poor idea for you to consult someone that you believe is more knowledgable for help. I did have an issue with this person that you went to not bothering to give you anything in the current rules that would cover the situation about which you inquired. Instead your rules person just said to use 2-3 and make up what to do. I don't believe that is helpful at all. You could have done that without consulting him. So my criticism was not of you, but of your state rules interpreter. If my interpreter were to write something to me that was as weak and unhelpful as yours did, I would criticize him too.

[RookieDude]

Late:

"Working" the night shift, again, and had some time to muddle through all this.

I actually changed my mind, as to how I would administer this sitch, as I was reading the different posts. No, Nevada, I am not giving the ball back to Team B.

Initially, I thought I would do as JR and others have suggested...simply put the correct time on the clock and start back at the endline.

But, as some posters have stated...and adding some of my own thoughts...

1) The ball was live as it was rolling
2) Team B chose to NOT play defense or press
3) The ball made it to a different place than where it started. (some player propelled it...the ball didn't roll on it's own)
4) If the timer had started the clock CORRECTLY, wouldn't the ball have been at the NEW SPOT (close to the division line) with the SAME time that should have been on the clock if it had not started incorrectly? (Sort of a TIME and DISTANCE thing...oh wait! a different thread)
5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

That's about all that you can do, Dude, when a play like this isn't definitively covered.

[OHBBREF]

Nevada
Okay having reread your rule cites, I see were you come up with the AP to reset play if you blew the whistle without possession / team control it does make some sense as to the determination that you came to.
I still do not agree with it - I think it a terrible outcome for the offense committed by the timer - but I find nothing that proves you wrong in the NFHS rules based blowing the ball dead without possession / team control being established.

That is the problem.

The whistle should not have been blown until possession/team control had been established,(this would not matter in NCAA as there is team control on the throw in), once team control is established, the whistle is blown, the timers mistake is rectified by resetting the clock or taking time off and the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot where the whistle blew. Because there is Team control the AP is out of the question.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Nevada
Okay having reread your rule cites, I see were you come up with the AP to reset play if you blew the whistle without possession / team control it does make some sense as to the determination that you came to.
I still do not agree with it - I think it a terrible outcome for the offense committed by the timer - but I find nothing that proves you wrong in the NFHS rules based blowing the ball dead without possession / team control being established.

That is the problem.

The whistle should not have been blown until possession/team control had been established,(this would not matter in NCAA as there is team control on the throw in), once team control is established, the whistle is blown, the timers mistake is rectified by resetting the clock or taking time off and the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot where the whistle blew. Because there is Team control the AP is out of the question.

Ok, we pretty much agree on this one. I've said numerous times that the current NFHS rules cover this poorly, and that if one were to follow the letter of the law in this case it could be grossly unfair. However, that consideration doesn't change what the actual rule is, which is what I have gone to great lengths to point out during this thread. Sadly, the applicable NFHS rule seems to be 6-4-3e, which says to go to the AP arrow.

You add a nice thought about the NCAA that since there is team control during the throw-in, this isn't a problem. That is one way that the NFHS could go to fix this. Perhaps they will make that change. It has been suggested for the past couple of years, since the NCAA did it.

However, you are incorrect under NCAA rules when you say that "the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot" following the stoppage. The NCAA released a clarification recently that said that the game resumes with a new throw-in by the same team from the original throw-in location.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sadly, the applicable NFHS rule seems to be 6-4-3e, which says to go to the AP arrow.

The only thing that's sad is your screwy interpretation. You're Old School with a rule book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only thing that's sad is your screwy interpretation. You're Old School with a rule book.

JR:

1) Boy are you up early.

2) NevadaRef sites the correct rule. I agree that it is not the best way to handle the situation, that is why I stated in my earlier post, that since the only thing that is happening is a Timer's error is to what until the throw-in is over and then correct the clock.

MTD, Sr.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

However, you are incorrect under NCAA rules when you say that "the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot" following the stoppage. The NCAA released a clarification recently that said that the game resumes with a new throw-in by the same team from the original throw-in location.

This is a direct quote from the Big sky conference in a press release
Posted 1/22/2007 5:13 PM ET
HELENA, Mont. (AP) — The Big Sky Conference has suspended three women's basketball officials for a wrong call during the Montana State-Idaho State game in Pocatello, Idaho on Saturday.
After Idaho State had begun bringing the ball up court following the made three-pointer, the officials stopped play because both the official game clock and shot clock had malfunctioned. The officiating crew nullified MSU's three-point basket and in essence, the officials ignored all play that occurred after the throw-in by MSU following the time out. The officials also failed to use information provided to them when determining how much time should be put on the clock, the league said.

"As a league, we are very supportive of our officials and we defer to them for judgment calls," said Big Sky Conference Commissioner Doug Fullerton. "But on an application of a rule, with three officials on the floor, we expect them to get it right. And, in light of the recent NCAA bulletin, which specifically addresses 'do-overs', these misapplications cannot be ignored or tolerated."

According to the rules, a shot clock malfunction problem has to be corrected within the shot clock period in which it occurred. However, in this case, a new shot clock period had begun when the throw-in by ISU took place and it was too late to cancel the basket.

Concerning the game clock, the rules state that a game clock malfunction must be corrected in the half or period in which it occurred. So, the officials could have corrected the time at any point within the period.

The officials needed to determine the correct time to be placed on both clocks based on those rules and resume play at the point of interruption, which is where the ball was when the officials stopped play. When an official has definite information relative to the malfunction problem and the time involved, they are permitted to correct the problem, but they are not permitted to ignore play that has occurred and start over, the league said.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

However, you are incorrect under NCAA rules when you say that "the ball is put inbounds nearest the spot" following the stoppage. The NCAA released a clarification recently that said that the game resumes with a new throw-in by the same team from the original throw-in location.


Nevada you are incorrect
based on this years 2/21/07 NCAA Rules Interpretations and Case Plays
Play AR 120 Ruling Says " ... After a Conclusion has been reached, the referee shall put the determined time on the game clock play shall be resumed at the point where the ball was located when play stopped for the timers mistake. ..."
https://www.eofficials.com/controlpa...?ContentID=11#

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Late:

"Working" the night shift, again, and had some time to muddle through all this.

I actually changed my mind, as to how I would administer this sitch, as I was reading the different posts. No, Nevada, I am not giving the ball back to Team B.

Initially, I thought I would do as JR and others have suggested...simply put the correct time on the clock and start back at the endline.

But, as some posters have stated...and adding some of my own thoughts...

1) The ball was live as it was rolling
2) Team B chose to NOT play defense or press
3) The ball made it to a different place than where it started. (some player propelled it...the ball didn't roll on it's own)
4) If the timer had started the clock CORRECTLY, wouldn't the ball have been at the NEW SPOT (close to the division line) with the SAME time that should have been on the clock if it had not started incorrectly? (Sort of a TIME and DISTANCE thing...oh wait! a different thread)
5) No specific rule...use judgement...at least one State rule interpreter with FED ties says so.

Here is why I disagree with that method....

Team A will get the ball near mid-court in a players hands with the clock stopped with an opportunity to throw the ball in a new direction with increased speed. That is an opportunity they don't have with the ball rolling down the court. Again, the difference is that, while the ball may be at the division line in both cases, team A gets the ball in a much better situation with a new throwin at mid-court with the clock stopped and no time removed.

Anytime the whistle is blown before the throwin is completed (and there is no violation or foul), the new throwin spot will be the old throwin spot.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Here is why I disagree with that method....

Team A will get the ball near mid-court in a players hands with the clock stopped with an opportunity to throw the ball in a new direction with increased speed. That is an opportunity they don't have with the ball rolling down the court. Again, the difference is that, while the ball may be at the division line in both cases, team A gets the ball in a much better situation with a new throwin at mid-court with the clock stopped and no time removed.

Anytime the whistle is blown before the throwin is completed (and there is no violation or foul), the new throwin spot will be the old throwin spot.

I posted exactly the same thing ages ago and the thread keeps on going. I just know that's what I would do and would be backed by my assignors because I've seen the situation and had the situation and that's always been the right way according to those I work for and want to work for.