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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 06:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I happen to believe that this play IS covered by the current NFHS rules, unfortunately quite poorly.

The pertinent rules are:

DEAD BALL
6-7-5 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
. . . An official's whistle is blown

ALTERNATING POSSESSION
6-4-3 . . . Alternating-possession throw-ins shall be from the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located. An alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:
e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.

CONTROL, PLAYER AND TEAM
4-12-6 . . . Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

BALL LOCATION,
4-3-3 . . . A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.

Therefore, by the current wording of the NFHS rules, this play results in an AP throw-in from the nearest OOB spot to where the ball last contacted the floor. I'll state now that I believe that this is an absolutely horrible outcome, but it is the current application of the rules. In my opinion, any official who did it that way would need a police escort out of the gym, if the arrow happened to favor the defense. So what else can we do?

What should have been done two years ago when the definition of POI was added is that the sentence from 6-4-3e should have been moved into 4-36-1. It is very similar to an interrupted game, but not exactly the same. The two should be treated in the same manner though. (Note: Until the rules are changed, I'm ruling that the situation in the OP IS an "interrupted game" and applying the POI rule.)

What this would do is allow the POI sequence to properly be applied to this situation. 4-36-2a would be bypassed as there is no team control, but 4-36-2b would take precedence over 4-36-2c, since the stoppage occurred DURING the throw-in, thus the AP arrow would not need to be used. (However, if the ball had been tapped or deflected on the court, but the whistle sounded prior to control being established, then 4-36-2c would take effect.)

RULE 4, SECTION 36 POINT OF INTERRUPTION
ART. 1 . . . Method of resuming play due to an official's accidental whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6, a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and 4-19-10. [The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, (time-out,) nor end of a quarter/extra period is involved.]
ART. 2 …Play shall be resumed by one of the following:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. An alternating-possession throw-in when the point of interruption is such that neither team is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is involved.

Applying this would give the ball back to the throwing team at the original throw-in location because 4-36-2b does NOT say ball location. A casebook play could be added to clarify this.

I'll pass this along to my fellow NV official who is on the NFHS rules committee. The wording needs some fine-tuning to account for time-outs, but I think that we can make it right.
I happen to believe you're completely wrong. Nowayinhell is that the purpose and intent of the rule. Your personal interpretation above is just plain ludicrous.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I happen to believe you're completely wrong. Nowayinhell is that the purpose and intent of the rule. Your personal interpretation above is just plain ludicrous.
You have to go to purpose and intent, JR, because you can't argue with the wording that I cited.

Now aren't you the guy who always says to enforce the rules AS WRITTEN?
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
You have to go to purpose and intent, JR, because you can't argue with the wording that I cited.

Now aren't you the guy who always says to enforce the rules AS WRITTEN?
Nevada, to be quite honest, I didn't read your post to the end. I was laughing too hard. You've come with some dandies before, but that one ranks right up there with your best.

Again, ludicrous.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I happen to believe that this play IS covered by the current NFHS rules, unfortunately quite poorly.

The pertinent rules are:

BALL LOCATION,
4-3-3 . . . A ball which is in flight retains the same location as when it was last in contact with a player or the court.
Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.

Assuming you blow the whistle before anyone touches the ball after it's rolled in why does the ball retain the location it last touched on the court instead of where it last touched a player?

Note they use the word *or*.

Geeze...time to visit the ignore feature.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.
That I'll agree with.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.

Assuming you blow the whistle before anyone touches the ball after it's rolled in why does the ball retain the location it last touched on the court instead of where it last touched a player?

Note they use the word *or*.

Geeze...time to visit the ignore feature.
It doesn't apply on a throw-in. So are you gonna assume the throw-in would have been completed? You can't give the team something they didn't earn. The only way the new throw-in spot changes is if the previous throw-in is completed. There was no infraction that would place the ball at a new spot when the whistle blew.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
It doesn't apply on a throw-in.
Ya know, I looked and I looked and I looked again and I just cannot find that little asterisk that says "does not apply to throw-ins".

You're gonna have to help me out here. Extra credit if you can quote a real rule.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Ya know, I looked and I looked and I looked again and I just cannot find that little asterisk that says "does not apply to throw-ins".

You're gonna have to help me out here. Extra credit if you can quote a real rule.
This is scary. Dan and I agree on this. Why wouldn't 4-4-3 apply during a throw-in? Is there somewhere in the rules where it says that it doesn't?

Last edited by Nevadaref; Thu Mar 22, 2007 at 03:37pm.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 11:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
The only way the new throw-in spot changes is if the previous throw-in is completed. There was no infraction that would place the ball at a new spot when the whistle blew.
For instance, if the ball continued rolling and went OOBs, we have a turnover and team B would return to the baseline for an inbounds... so why wouldn't it return to the baseline after the official's whistle for the clock correction?
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Old Thu Mar 22, 2007, 12:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
For instance, if the ball continued rolling and went OOBs, we have a turnover and team B would return to the baseline for an inbounds... so why wouldn't it return to the baseline after the official's whistle for the clock correction?
Because there are two completely different rules that would come into play. If the ball went OOB untouched, 9-2-2 is the governing rule and the penalty for section 2 on page 56 says that the throw-in goes back to the original spot. If the official sounds the whistle to stop the game for a clock problem, the we need to use the rule that governs that stoppage. That rule says to go to the location of the ball, so 4-3-3 must be consulted and that will determine the placement of the ensuing throw-in.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Yet another bullsh1t interpretation from the King of Bullsh1t Interpretations.

Assuming you blow the whistle before anyone touches the ball after it's rolled in why does the ball retain the location it last touched on the court instead of where it last touched a player?

Note they use the word *or*.

Geeze...time to visit the ignore feature.
Because which one happened last or most recently, Dan? The ball contacted the court, so that is it's location. It's not hard.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Because which one happened last or most recently, Dan? The ball contacted the court, so that is it's location. It's not hard.
So you're interpreting the word "or" as "the last or most recent thing that happened".

Nice.

I prefer to interpret it as "or".

It's not hard.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
So you're interpreting the word "or" as "the last or most recent thing that happened".
Where it last touched a player or the court, obviously means just that.

Sorry that you don't agree, but you are going to be in the minority on that one.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2007, 07:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Therefore, by the current wording of the NFHS rules, this play results in an AP throw-in from the nearest OOB spot to where the ball last contacted the floor. I'll state now that I believe that this is an absolutely horrible outcome, but it is the current application of the rules. In my opinion, any official who did it that way would need a police escort out of the gym, if the arrow happened to favor the defense. So what else can we do?
YOW!!!

What else can we do? How about we take a look at the definition of when a throw-in ends???
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Old Sun Mar 25, 2007, 05:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Mark, go back and read Nevada's post. He's saying that he'll go with the arrow if the whistle is blown BEFORE the ball is touched. Iow, without anyone touching the ball in-bounds on that throw-in, he's going to give the defense the ball if they've got the arrow.That's what you agreed with.
WRONG! As you usually are when you get into this crabby, "no-one-can-tell-me-anything" mood. Otherwise, you're normally quite good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
(Note: Until the rules are changed, I'm ruling that the situation in the OP IS an "interrupted game" and applying the POI rule.)

Last edited by Nevadaref; Sun Mar 25, 2007 at 07:36pm.
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