Watta ya got video?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Again, as long you have your book there, can you quote me a rule that hasn't already been posted previously by other people on this thread? Iow, please show us you really do have a book, and that this statement is not an outright lie.

For example, you mentioned earlier in this thread about "habitual motion". Can you cite the rule that mentions habitual motion?

Rule 4-11-1. 04/05 book, my 06/07 book is packed away in my bag that I carry with me to all my games. This is not about me, it's not about OS, and it's certainly not about whether I have a rulebook or not.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Rule 4-11-1. 04/05 book, my 06/07 book is packed away in my bag that I carry with me to all my games. This is not about me, it's not about OS, and it's certainly not about whether I have a rulebook or not.

Good, I'm impressed you know the rule number. Can you tell the wording in the rule that corresponds with your statement?:

Originally Posted by Old School

And finally, we talk about habitual motion. When is the player in the act of shooting. Once the player starts his H/M, he is now in the act of shooting. Defensive player runs underneath him, easy block call. Offensive player is allowed to return to the floor.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Good, I'm impressed you know the rule number. Can you tell the wording in the rule that corresponds with your statement?:

Okay, I see you're trying to twist me up here. This is still interesting reading on this play. Again, if you get to hung up on the detail of the rule itself, you will undoubtly miss the play. R4-11-2 states that:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These priviledges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, I see you're trying to twist me up here. This is still interesting reading on this play. Again, if you get to hung up on the detail of the rule itself, you will undoubtly miss the play. R4-11-2 states that:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These priviledges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

all well and good, but doesn't play a part in this play. The opponent didn't foul, the ballhandler did.....and really no one is trying to twist you up...you are like a windsock in a tornado LOL....

[Adam]

Unreal. You quote the rule, and still think when the shot motion started has any bearing on this call at all. LGP is required before the shooter becomes airborne; it is not required to be established before the shooter becomes a shooter. Absolutely unreal.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Unreal. You quote the rule, and still think when the shot motion started has any bearing on this call at all. LGP is required before the shooter becomes airborne; it is not required to be established before the shooter becomes a shooter. Absolutely unreal.

Every time he posts something - and I mean EVERY time - he proves what an a$$ he is...someone really seriously needs to yank his IP address off of here - he does nothing but try to screw people up with his gibberish...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Every time he posts something - and I mean EVERY time - he proves what an a$$ he is...someone really seriously needs to yank his IP address off of here - he does nothing but try to screw people up with his gibberish...

Relax, take a deep breath, and repeat after me.
It's not all about me.
Repeat, it's not all about me...

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Old School

Relax, take a deep breath, and repeat after me.
It's not all about me.
Repeat, it's not all about me...

Ok, Il give it a try...
"It's not about Old School. It's not about Old School..."

Sorry, not working. You're still a stupid dumb-a$$...

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Unreal. You quote the rule, and still think when the shot motion started has any bearing on this call at all. LGP is required before the shooter becomes airborne; it is not required to be established before the shooter becomes a shooter. Absolutely unreal.

Rule 4-27-5 does not agree with you here, imo.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Rule 4-27-5 does not agree with you here, imo.

Like I said, unreal. Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

Rule 4-27-5 is all about whether a foul is considered a shooting foul or not. Nowhere does it say that LGP must be established prior to the start of the shooting motion. The shooting motion can start as soon as the player picks up his dribble, which can be a step and a half before he becomes airborne. The rule you quote states what happens if the shooter is fouled. It doesn't say jack sh!t about how to determine whom the foul is on, or whether there's actually a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Rule 4-27-5 does not agree with you here, imo.

Read rules 4-41 and 6-7-9EXCEPTION(c), you f***ing moron. That's the applicable rule. Also read casebook play 6.7SitE. In that play, continous motion applies to a shooter who never does leave his feet. A "try" starts when the ball comes to rest in a player's hands to start the shooting motion, NOT when he leaves his feet. And continuous motion has got dick-all to do with the call anyway.

You just don't understand the basic rules concepts needed to call plays like this.

I said I was gonna ignore this idiot for the rest of this thread, but he is just stoopid beyond belief. Old School, when it comes to stupidity, you've raised the bar beyond the reach of mere mortal idiots.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Okay, I see you're trying to twist me up here. This is still interesting reading on this play. Again, if you get to hung up on the detail of the rule itself, you will undoubtly miss the play. R4-11-2 states that:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These priviledges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

The detail of the rule itself is the only way to get the play right. So, let's quote the whole rule and see how it applies.

Originally Posted by Rule Book

4-11
Art. 1... Continuous motion applies to a try or tapp for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.
Art. 2... If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These priviledges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.
Art. 3... Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

This rule is pretty clearly not applicable when trying to determine whether a foul has occurred or by whom it was committed. It only becomes applicable, according to the excruciatingly clear wording, when you have already determined that a foul has been committed by the defense. Anyone with the reading ability beyond a first grade student could see this.

I'll say it again. I think you're really smarter than this, but faith can only hold out against incontrovertable scientific evidence for so long.

[Raymond]

It's amazing how many pages this thread decreased when I added Old School back to my Ignore list.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's amazing how many pages this thread decreased when I added Old School back to my Ignore list.

Sigh...I know.

I guess I always hope people can be helped. Maybe that's not always the case.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Old School:

I decided to stop pussy footing around with you. I am going to ask you very politely to read everything that I write in this post because: This weekend is the YMCA Great Lakes Zone Swimming Championships at The Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio. Our younger son is representing the Toledo YMCA Peguins Swim Club in to Boys' 14U relays and instead of sitting in the hotel hot tub with my lovely wife, I am going to devote a lot of time to this post teaching you about guarding and screening. Unfortunately, I do not have my NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA Rules Books with me, many of the pertinent Rules, Casebook, and Approved Rulings have been quoted. This post is going to be part history of the rules, part rules, part case book and approved rulings, and part mechanics. All things that you, personally, need to understand so that you can correctly apply the rules in guarding and screening situations.

1) The guarding and screening definitions in all three rules codes have been unchanged for over fifty years; not withstanding Barb Jacobs idiotic interpretation of the legal guarding postion with regards to the NCAA Women's Rules because like you she was not a basketball official (a former coach) and was comletely ignorant of the how and why a rule is written the way it is.

2) The National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (the predecessor the the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees adopted the current rules for guarding and screening over fifty years ago. The concept that an offensive player who is not airborne when he gains first gains control of the all, must expect to be guarded from the instant he gains control of the ball; in other words, the defensive player does not have to give time and distance when obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player in control of the ball as long as the offensive player was not airborne when he gained control of the ball. Time and distance only applies to guarding a offensive player without the ball or an offensive player who gains control of the ball while airborne. Time and distance also applies to all (My apologies to J. Dallas Shirley.) screening situations; it should be noted that screens can be set by all ten players on the court, i.e., the offensive player in control of the ball can set a screen against a defensive player and a defensive player can set a screen against an offensive player (including the offensive player in control of the ball).

3) Closesly guarded situations have nothing to do with obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position.

4) I repeat: Time and distance does NOT apply when obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player who is not airborne when he gains control of the ball.

5) The Act of Shooting and Continuous Motion have nothing to do with obtaining/establishing a legal guarding postition.

6) I repeat: Time and distance does NOT apply when obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player who is not airborne when he gains control of the ball.

7) Good officials officiate the defense. Yes, the Lead in a three-whistle officiating crew will normally be watching the offensive player with the ball from the waist up when that player is in the low post, it is wrong to say the the Lead must always watch the offensive player from the waist up to the exclusion of watching the whole play. In the play being discussed, the drive started in the Trails' primary, but the secondary defender was the Lead's resonsibiity and should be able to see both the offensive and defensive players in order to make this block/charge call. A good official develops the ablility to have to V's of vision: a vertical vision and a horizontal vision.

8) I repeat: Time and distance does NOT apply when obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player who is not airborne when he gains control of the ball.

9) In conversations with you you admitted that your posts revealed your rules knowledge was lacking but that should not equate to lack of ability. I have this to say to you: One may know the rules and casebook forwards and backwards and that person still may not have the ability to apply that knowlege on the court, but one cannot begin to be a good official unless he does have a command of the rules and casebook. Your lack of rules knowledge translates directly proportinal to your ability to correctly officiate the game.

10) I repeat: Time and distance does NOT apply when obtaining/establishing a legal guarding position against an offensive player who is not airborne when he gains control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.