Watta ya got video?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

Gentlemen, I got a block on that play. Defender too late getting there. Maybe it's because of college, but in the NBA and college, both men and women, this is a block! The only way I would call a PC is if the guy was standing there when he made his move from the top. Running over there from the other side while the offensive player is already into his final move is too late defense, a block. IMHO, restricted area or not, he got there to late.

Old School:

I can tell you did not take my officiating class, because that is a charge. Your whole premise for saying this is a block is absolute horse manure. The defender obtained(NFHS)/established(NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) per the rules and the offensive player committed a charging foul. It is obvious you do not understand the reasoning behind why the rule is written as it is. An offensive player without the ball has a reasonable expectation of not being guarded because he does NOT have the ball. BUT, a player in control of the ball must expect to be guarded from the moment he gains control of the ball. You may not like the rule, but you are required to enforce the rule as written, to do otherwise gives the offensive team an advantage that the rules specificially denies them.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I would have called a charge.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

I can tell you did not take my officiating class, because that is a charge. Your whole premise for saying this is a block is absolute horse manure. The defender obtained(NFHS)/established(NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) per the rules and the offensive player committed a charging foul. It is obvious you do not understand the reasoning behind why the rule is written as it is. An offensive player without the ball has a reasonable expectation of not being guarded because he does NOT have the ball. BUT, a player in control of the ball must expect to be guarded from the moment he gains control of the ball. You may not like the rule, but you are required to enforce the rule as written, to do otherwise gives the offensive team an advantage that the rules specificially denies them.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. I would have called a charge.

Well, pardon me that I don't follow your rules blindly into oblivion. God gave me a brain and the ability to reason. I am in disagreement with the Fed. on this rule, if this is in fact the rule. In my games, I will not allow a secondary defender, to run up under a player who is about to go airborne. I consider that, too big of an advantage to the defense. Logically speaking, the offensive player had an open lane to the basket. Plus 1 to the offensive. The defensive player realizes he's out of position on this play and immediately runs over to protect the rim. (Plus another 1 to the offense). It is not the offensive player fault that the back door is open. IOW, not penalizing the offensive team for a defensive letdown. Completely different story if defender is standing there from the jump. And finally, we talk about habitual motion. When is the player in the act of shooting. Once the player starts his H/M, he is now in the act of shooting. Defensive player runs underneath him, easy block call. Offensive player is allowed to return to the floor.

I will admit, I have read the NBA code, and maybe I am somewhat bias to this play from an NBA prospective. I'm going to side on the NBA on this one because it just makes better basketball since to me. I am also not refereeing by milliseconds or split-seconds. That is cutting it too close for my comfort and I can not consistently call a game by milliseconds. What I mean is that, if in order to determine if I am right or wrong, it comes down to a split-second. Half the time I'm going to be right and half the time I'm going to guess wrong, because if we're talking split-second, I'm guessing. Notice how the OP was not sure he made the right call until he went back and watched the film afterwards. If I have to go to a monitor to determine if I made the correct call, and that comes down to a split-second, then I'm totally guessing. In this stitch, he got lucky making that call.

IMO, that's a block. The defense is given to huge of an advantage here when they where in fact the ones that erred. You can't cover the entire court. So I guess I did not attend your class. However, I do not believe that my analogy is horse manure because another association agrees with me too, and I know they don't want that called an offensive foul in college men's. Restricted area, lower block to the basket, especially if the play originates from the top, which this play did.

BTW, what's a Padawan Learner??

[RushmoreRef]

I've got

Video 1 - CHARGE..that's a charge at minute 1 and it is at minute 32....Great call. The fact that's it's being argued is nonsensical to me....Foot is down, contact is in the chest....BAM, that's offense....

Video 2 - No call...I think that one was easy and the shooting foul is there....

Great work in a tough environment....

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Old School

And finally, we talk about habitual motion. When is the player in the act of shooting. Once the player starts his H/M, he is now in the act of shooting. Defensive player runs underneath him, easy block call. Offensive player is allowed to return to the floor.

If the defender is legally "there" (w/o going into the semantics of LGP) before A1 becomes airborne, which he was, then it's a charge. This isn't the NBA, and there isn't a semi circle to help you out.

O/S, I've been reading you for the last month or so and watch you get attacked on here. At times felt sorry for you, but for you to bring up the NBA for what seems to me to be the first time to justify your lack of rules knowledge in this situation, and your blatant disregard for the rules makes me wonder if the "attacks" are warranted. Now what you may perceive was bad defense could've just as well be a set defensive play to open up the lane or baseline to draw the charge. For all we know, the coach could've saw tape where he knows #34 or 23 does nothing but take it the hole and designed plays to counter that. Who knows.

I was just wondering if you ever take anything away from this discussion board that may help improve your game, or are you just hell bent and set in your ways to continuously call your games according to your logic that I read on here (one which I agree with). And I guess I'm falling into the crowd by asking you questions regarding your officiating by asking, what do you do in the off season, or even during the regular season for improvement. I'm not talking about calling rec or AAU to improve your game, I'm talking seeking some type of evaluation through camps or other evaluating methods? Or as you have put it, does your sH$& not stink and you've arrived to the pinnacle of your officiating avocation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) God gave me a brain and the ability to reason.

2) I am in disagreement with the Fed. on this rule, if this is in fact the rule. In my games, I will not allow a secondary defender, to run up under a player who is about to go airborne. I consider that, [I][U]too big of an advantage to the defense.

3) And finally, we talk about habitual motion. When is the player in the act of shooting. Once the player starts his H/M, he is now in the act of shooting. Defensive player runs underneath him, easy block call. Offensive player is allowed to return to the floor.

4) In this stitch, he got lucky making that call.

5) However, I do not believe that my analogy is horse manure because another association agrees with me too, and I know they don't want that called an offensive foul in college men's. Restricted area, lower block to the basket, especially if the play originates from the top, which this play did.

1)

2) You and Btaylor......

3) If you owned a basketball rule book...any basketball rule book....you would have known that "habitual motion" and an "airborne shooter" are completely different concepts. You would also have known that "habitual motion" is completely irrelevant in this or any play as to whether it was a block or a charge.

4) Yup, lucky ol' RookieDude.

5) What other association agrees with you? Please name the association.

To sum up, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Again.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Old School

I am in disagreement with the Fed. on this rule, if this is in fact the rule.

This is sad... you really do not have a rule book and you believe that enforcing your own rules while on the court is ok.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

Well, pardon me that I don't follow your rules blindly into oblivion. God gave me a brain and the ability to reason. I am in disagreement with the Fed. on this rule, if this is in fact the rule. In my games, I will not allow a secondary defender, to run up under a player who is about to go airborne. I consider that, too big of an advantage to the defense. Logically speaking, the offensive player had an open lane to the basket. Plus 1 to the offensive. The defensive player realizes he's out of position on this play and immediately runs over to protect the rim. (Plus another 1 to the offense). It is not the offensive player fault that the back door is open. IOW, not penalizing the offensive team for a defensive letdown. Completely different story if defender is standing there from the jump. And finally, we talk about habitual motion. When is the player in the act of shooting. Once the player starts his H/M, he is now in the act of shooting. Defensive player runs underneath him, easy block call. Offensive player is allowed to return to the floor.

I will admit, I have read the NBA code, and maybe I am somewhat bias to this play from an NBA prospective. I'm going to side on the NBA on this one because it just makes better basketball since to me. I am also not refereeing by milliseconds or split-seconds. That is cutting it too close for my comfort and I can not consistently call a game by milliseconds. What I mean is that, if in order to determine if I am right or wrong, it comes down to a split-second. Half the time I'm going to be right and half the time I'm going to guess wrong, because if we're talking split-second, I'm guessing. Notice how the OP was not sure he made the right call until he went back and watched the film afterwards. If I have to go to a monitor to determine if I made the correct call, and that comes down to a split-second, then I'm totally guessing. In this stitch, he got lucky making that call.

IMO, that's a block. The defense is given to huge of an advantage here when they where in fact the ones that erred. You can't cover the entire court. So I guess I did not attend your class. However, I do not believe that my analogy is horse manure because another association agrees with me too, and I know they don't want that called an offensive foul in college men's. Restricted area, lower block to the basket, especially if the play originates from the top, which this play did.

BTW, what's a Padawan Learner??

Old School:

What are you advocating is not "old school." What I am telling you is how the rules committees have wanted it called for at least 50 years, and I have been a boys'/girls' H.S. official for 36 years, women's college for 33 years, and men's college and FIBA for 14 years. What you are advocating is wrong and shows a lack of understanding of the rules and how and why they are written. I feel sorry for you.

MTD, Sr.

[Back In The Saddle]

I've got a charge. No way you no-call that IMO

[Joel Poli]

PC, great call.

[SMEngmann]

Great charge call, seemed more obvious to me than most on the board I've read. Even if there was a bit of a flop, and I'm not saying there was, the dribbler went right through the space of the defender who was there first and legally.

On the other call, it's tough to say. Definitely a good no call on the flop, but I might have had a foul on the trip, but I can't tell definitively what happened from the camera angle.

Finally, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the foul call at the end of the second play by the L. I thought the defender had pretty good position and verticality, and it looks to me like the offense initiates the contact with a lean in. To me the offensive contact forces the defender's hands down into a position where it looks like he doesn't have verticality. Not the greatest angle here, but what do you guys think about a no call on the foul to send the player to the line with 2 seconds left?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

... but I might have had a foul on the trip, but I can't tell definitively what happened from the camera angle.

From my earlier post in this thread #33:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then the offensive player trips on the fallen defender, which in NFHS is not a foul.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Finally, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the foul call at the end of the second play by the L. I thought the defender had pretty good position and verticality, and it looks to me like the offense initiates the contact with a lean in. To me the offensive contact forces the defender's hands down into a position where it looks like he doesn't have verticality.

Hey, don't I qualify?
Also from post #33:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Finally the Lead makes an excellent foul call on the shot. The defender whacked the shooter with his right arm.

If you watch it again, you will see that the defender does not stay vertical with his right arm and brings it down onto the offensive player and I don't believe that it is a result of any contact the offensive player caused. He pretty much went straight up.

[IUgrad92]

I'm surprised this question hasn't come up with the first video, with this play originating from the wing, where was the trail?? I'd like to think that being T in that cirmcumstance I'd be closing down some on the pass to #4 red and especially then following the drive to the basket. Being L in that play, I still am trying to get better at having a 'patient whistle' on that drive from the wing. Rookie, were you anticipating your T to have that, and then had to come in and take it yourself? It seemed from the video that it took you a little longer that normal before I saw you come into the picture going to the table to report.

Just wondered if that came up in the postgame discussions???

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm surprised this question hasn't come up with the first video, with this play originating from the wing, where was the trail?? I'd like to think that being T in that cirmcumstance I'd be closing down some on the pass to #4 red and especially then following the drive to the basket. Being L in that play, I still am trying to get better at having a 'patient whistle' on that drive from the wing. Rookie, were you anticipating your T to have that, and then had to come in and take it yourself? It seemed from the video that it took you a little longer that normal before I saw you come into the picture going to the table to report.

Just wondered if that came up in the postgame discussions???

My opinion of how the 3-man mechanics work on this type of play is that the Trail would have the player with the ball and any defender who picks him up out there on the wing and goes to the basket with him, but there is NO WAY that the Trail can also have the defender running in from the weak side and trying to take the charge at the block. He just isn't going to know if that defender got there in time.
However, the Lead can pick up the DEFENDER coming across the FT lane and observe his feet to set if he establishes initial LGP. If the contact occurs after that the Lead will know the right call. The key is that the defender is a secondary defender, he does not come in from the wing with the dribbler, and he sets up in the Lead's primary area. This makes it the Lead's call. We always say referee the defense.
BTW while the Center can see the player come from his primary and run across the lane, he probably isn't going to have as good of a look at the final position that the defender takes or the contact between the two players since he will be looking at the back of the defender and from a good distance away.
I disagree with anyone who says that the crash is the Trail's call. The Lead should have the first shot at it. However, if there is a travel before the crash, the Trail should have that.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

I'm surprised this question hasn't come up with the first video, with this play originating from the wing, where was the trail?? I'd like to think that being T in that cirmcumstance I'd be closing down some on the pass to #4 red and especially then following the drive to the basket. Being L in that play, I still am trying to get better at having a 'patient whistle' on that drive from the wing. Rookie, were you anticipating your T to have that, and then had to come in and take it yourself? It seemed from the video that it took you a little longer that normal before I saw you come into the picture going to the table to report.

Just wondered if that came up in the postgame discussions???

You are overthinking; the ball was right in front of him and he made the correct call. Also, I don't think it was anywhere in his mind to hurry up and get in the camera shot. I think you are worrying too much about the camera and not concerning yourself with the fact that the play was right in front of the L.

[Scrapper1]

I know I'm late to the conversation, but FWIW, I think the PC was a great call. I think the no-call in the second clip is also correct. And I think the kid in the interview was a class act, especially considering the PC was his 5th foul.

Nice job, Rook, and thanks for sharing.