Player leaves court

[Vinski]

I don’t think anyone authorized her to leave the court. She just left and sat down. She still hadn’t returned to the court even after the officials gave the ball to the shooter. So, wouldn’t that be a T situation?

[Adam]

"authorized reason" is pretty vague, but Nevada is right. Pouting isn't considered an authorized reason, but it wasn't a live ball so the violation isn't in force. However, hitting her for not promptly returning to the court is an easy way to give the T. That said, it's a pretty easy call for a veteran official when she's doing it to express her disapproval with the call.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"authorized reason" is pretty vague, but Nevada is right. Pouting isn't considered an authorized reason, but it wasn't a live ball so the violation isn't in force. However, hitting her for not promptly returning to the court is an easy way to give the T. That said, it's a pretty easy call for a veteran official when she's doing it to express her disapproval with the call.

Adam,
My point is that what is in red is not a technical foul in this situation by the book. The rules simply don't justify it.

My opinion is that what is in green is the right way to go.

For Vinski,
If a team accidently plays with four there is no prescribed penalty in the NFHS books. If the team attempts to purposely play with only four when five are available that is not allowed.

[Vinski]

Please forgive me if I appear to be beating this, but let me pose this question another way. What if it was a different player not involved in the foul and she was just confused or tired? In other word there was no sportsmanship issue here at all. Would this have been just a violation and then team B would simply get the ball after the free throws were taken? What if she never returned to the court? I know; lots of what ifs. Thanks again for your replys.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Adam,
My point is that what is in red is not a technical foul in this situation by the book. The rules simply don't justify it.

My opinion is that what is in green is the right way to go.

For Vinski,
If a team accidently plays with four there is no prescribed penalty in the NFHS books. If the team attempts to purposely play with only four when five are available that is not allowed.

I see what you're saying.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Adam,
My point is that what is in red is not a technical foul in this situation by the book. The rules simply don't justify it.

My opinion is that what is in green is the right way to go.

For Vinski,
If a team accidently plays with four there is no prescribed penalty in the NFHS books. If the team attempts to purposely play with only four when five are available that is not allowed.

I am not clear on the final answer to this one. I am not sure, by rules, why the T was called at the time it was called. is the decision an unsportsman T? I would understand a Delay T perhaps at throw in and not having 5 players, but they made the ball live to the shooter, then called the T.

Would you please explain once more what you believe the call is for this?
Thanks

[Texas Aggie]

Regardless of the T situation, do not administer the free throw with fewer than 5 players on the court unless they don't have enough players. Not saying the T was incorrect nor am I saying I wouldn't have issued one, but depending on what happened, I might say to the coach, "I need a sub if she's out" and see what happened.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Splute

I am not clear on the final answer to this one. I am not sure, by rules, why the T was called at the time it was called. is the decision an unsportsman T? I would understand a Delay T perhaps at throw in and not having 5 players, but they made the ball live to the shooter, then called the T.

Would you please explain once more what you believe the call is for this?
Thanks

I wasn't there and I can't tell you exactly what that official was thinking. All I can do is tell you the rules. So here goes:

It is my opinion that the only correct justification for a T in this situation is an unsporting foul under 10-3-7a.

If the calling official charged the T for the team not having five players on the court or for the player leaving the court for an unauthorized reason or for the player failing to return by the time the ball was made live, then the official was wrong by rule in his reasoning for the T.

If a player is confused and leaves the floor during a dead ball and the team now only has four players, there is no penalty in the NFHS rules book unless that player returns to the court during playing action. If the team waits until the next dead ball to put another team member into the game, there should be no penalty (either violation or technical foul) because there is no rule which an official can point to in order to justify making a call.
The following casebook play supports what I am writing:

10.3.3 SITUATION B: After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only four players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly onto the court without reporting or without being beckoned. RULING: A technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced.

[Splute]

I follow that. I was curious about Rule 8-1-5 regarding any player that is not the free thrower and does not occupy a lane must be behind the free throw line extended.... but I do not know if there is a penalty for failure to abide.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Splute

I follow that. I was curious about Rule 8-1-5 regarding any player that is not the free thrower and does not occupy a lane must be behind the free throw line extended.... but I do not know if there is a penalty for failure to abide.

My opinion is that that only applies to those who are on the court (inbounds).

Now if a player decided to go stand OOB under the basket during an opponent's FT, I would probably charge a T for unsporting conduct.

[amcginthy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For Vinski,
If a team accidently plays with four there is no prescribed penalty in the NFHS books. If the team attempts to purposely play with only four when five are available that is not allowed.

This is off the original topic, but I have a question about this part... I was recently coaching a game where the other team only had 6 players - one had twisted an ankle and was layed up on the bench - a second player was poked in the eye, and had to leave the game - they had no sub for her - coach said he was going to play with 4... when I realized that he didn't have anyone else to play at that time, I called for the official to hold on, and I called one of my players off the floor...

by rule, was I not allowed to do this? official's never said anything to me, just let it happen (of course they knew that I was doing this in an attempt to be fair)...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by amcginthy

by rule, was I not allowed to do this? official's never said anything to me, just let it happen (of course they knew that I was doing this in an attempt to be fair)...

Yes, by rule you were not allowed to do this.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by amcginthy

This is off the original topic, but I have a question about this part... I was recently coaching a game where the other team only had 6 players - one had twisted an ankle and was layed up on the bench - a second player was poked in the eye, and had to leave the game - they had no sub for her - coach said he was going to play with 4... when I realized that he didn't have anyone else to play at that time, I called for the official to hold on, and I called one of my players off the floor...

by rule, was I not allowed to do this? official's never said anything to me, just let it happen (of course they knew that I was doing this in an attempt to be fair)...

You did something which was very sporting, but not allowed by the rules. Last year a coach out here instructed two of his players to just stand at the division line, but remain on the court, in a similar situation when the opponent was down to only three.

NUMBER OF PLAYERS REQUIRED
3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no substitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the referee believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.