Cooling off

[K-Bach]

Oh, this is too much fun...

"And some of these people are simply bad officials. Some are getting too old." I guess the inherent hypocrisy shouldn't surprise me. Too many aged officials assigned and too many youngsters replacing them.

"I do hear a lot of officials complaining, maybe it's because there are just way more who don't get selected than there are people who do." You're serious, right? Being selective about who officiates the most important (not necessarily the most entertaining) games is a bad thing to do? Your logic escapes me, aside from the suggestion that selecting more officials would make more people happy.

"One more thing, their voices are all saying the same thing. That's where you're going to run into problems. If they where to all get together and file a class action lawsuit against the state HS school organizations selection process." Yes, they're all saying they got screwed and doing very little about it. A class action lawsuit may indeed lead to change, but it may also verify the selection process. This lawsuit would, however, produce a lot of testimony. All of it, I'm sure, from officials who feel they were screwed and none from officials who learned from being "snubbed" and worked hard to improve their game.


"The funny little thing about our government, they don't like to see companies come up with criteria for hiring that only a young man can pass, or that unfairly punishes one group (older Americans) over another." Oh, that's rich. I suspect there are a few people in America who would disagree with you. However, this is not a government policy discussion, nor should it become political. Fabulous non-sequitor by the way.

"Only the most qualified guy be the president. Our president would never change, and some committee would be in control of who gets to run this country, and every year, it would be the same guy over and over and over." Playoff officials are responsible for playoff games (many games, many officials) in their part of the world. Their decisions do not have global ramifications and they do not need term limits to prevent them from becoming dictators for life. Do you discuss anything but non-sequitors and moot points?

Okay, you don't waste your time on HS playoffs, yet you insist on comparing the officiating of said games to the office of the president or corporate hiring practices. To badly paraphrase Hamlet-- the hypocrite doth protest too much, methinks.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

That's because it was a backhanded congratulations. "Nice job, but...."

That's because this young man coming out here gloating about his success is a backhanded slap in the face to the many officials who have been doing this much much longer.

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"I do hear a lot of officials complaining, maybe it's because there are just way more who don't get selected than there are people who do." You're serious, right? Being selective about who officiates the most important (not necessarily the most entertaining) games is a bad thing to do? Your logic escapes me, aside from the suggestion that selecting more officials would make more people happy.

I totally agree with this, except... Why is it always the same people every year? It's like once you get to the big dance, and you do a good job (which really has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the players) you now have big dance experienced. Here's where I think the problem starts and your logic needs adjustment. Once you work the big game, you now have big game experienced and this automatically makes you more qualified to work the big game next year and the year after, and the year after that. You want to talk methodical or paraphrase Hamlet. Have you ever heard of the self-fulfilling philosophy?

Originally Posted by K-Bach

"One more thing, their voices are all saying the same thing. That's where you're going to run into problems. If they where to all get together and file a class action lawsuit against the state HS school organizations selection process." Yes, they're all saying they got screwed and doing very little about it. A class action lawsuit may indeed lead to change, but it may also verify the selection process. This lawsuit would, however, produce a lot of testimony. All of it, I'm sure, from officials who feel they were screwed and none from officials who learned from being "snubbed" and worked hard to improve their game.

How do you know that? The assumption here, which I don't think is right or fair, is that all the people who didn't get selected, are undeserving. I don't think that the selection process will verify as good as you think it will if you really start to dig into it.

To bring this discussion full circle for me. I'm going to give you 2 examples and hopefully this will rest my case.
#1.) The tape don't lie. I've been to the camps and I know 3-person mechanics and I'm sitting here watching the start of a playoff game and the U1 is standing in front of the table on the jump ball. His position is like it's a 2-person game. You know this guy doesn't know 3-person.
#2.) Things that I have heard from some pregame discussions. NCAA official says, has there been any changes to HS rules this year? I haven't work any HS games at all this year. Now, how does a college official who hasn't work any HS games this year, get a HS playoff assignment?

Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process! You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political. Maybe it doesn't rise to any global ramifications like what we are facing in our society today, but it is certainly political. If you want to argue that it's not, then maybe we need to make it political in order to get a satisfactorily resolution. I have told you that this is not that big of deal for me but you must understand that there are a lot of officials out here, over time, that has witness this type of hypocrisy. Their attitudes maybe permanently soured from all the negative things they have seen happen.

I have the solution though I doubt if anybody going to listen to me. Complete overhaul of the selection committee and term limits.

Originally Posted by K-Bach

Oh, this is too much fun...

Agreed...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

That's because this young man coming out here gloating about his success is a backhanded slap in the face to the many officials who have been doing this much much longer.

Then don't bother with the backhanded compliment. You're making assumptions and imputing motives where you have no right to do so. He wasn't gloating so much as venting. If someone mentioning that they had a playoff game offends you....

Originally Posted by Old School

How do you know that? The assumption here, which I don't think is right or fair, is that all the people who didn't get selected, are undeserving.

It might help if you actually read the quotes you're using in your posts. He didn't say "all" such people are undeserving.

Originally Posted by Old School

To bring this discussion full circle for me. I'm going to give you 2 examples and hopefully this will rest my case.
#1.) The tape don't lie. I've been to the camps and I know 3-person mechanics and I'm sitting here watching the start of a playoff game and the U1 is standing in front of the table on the jump ball. His position is like it's a 2-person game. You know this guy doesn't know 3-person.

This tells me you live in a state that is just recently going to three person mechanics. And again, you're making an assumption that isn't warranted. Just because a guy goes to the wrong position once doesn't mean he doesn't know 3 person mechanics. At most, it shows he has recently worked a significant amount of 2-person and momentarily lost track of the opening mechanic.

Originally Posted by Old School

#2.) Things that I have heard from some pregame discussions. NCAA official says, has there been any changes to HS rules this year? I haven't work any HS games at all this year. Now, how does a college official who hasn't work any HS games this year, get a HS playoff assignment?

Are you saying you were involved with the pregame discussion for a playoff game? I don't know of a single state where an official who hasn't worked a single HS game can get a playoff game. In both states I've worked in, it's not possible. In every other state I've heard about with regard to this, it's not possible. I'm calling you out on this. In what state can an official get a playoff game without having done a single HS varsity game all season?

Originally Posted by Old School

Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process!

I'm confused about your problem. Are you upset that the old guys keep getting playoff assignments? Are you upset that young guys keep getting playoff assignments? Or are you upset that you haven't got a playoff assignment?

Originally Posted by Old School

You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political. Maybe it doesn't rise to any global ramifications like what we are facing in our society today, but it is certainly political. If you want to argue that it's not, then maybe we need to make it political in order to get a satisfactorily resolution.

That's right. Call your congressman.

[K-Bach]

Snaq took care of most of the logical inconsistencies, but...

"Now, you throw in a young guy in his twenties and you expect me to believe that there is no problems in the selection process!" What does this comment have to do with the college officials you spuriously use as examples? You are truly the king of non-sequitors!

"You expect me to believe that all is well and this guy earned his way in! You also want me to believe that this is not political." No, I want you to make a coherent argument, preferably one that incorporates logic and relevant examples.

"I have the solution though I doubt if anybody going to listen to me. Complete overhaul of the selection committee and term limits." The reason nobody here is listening to your solution is because you haven't provided a reasonable description of the problem -- innuendo, non-sequitors, sweeping generalizations, and biased half-truths do not convince the audience (except in politics). Furthermore, I was not aware that there was one selection committee for all HS playoffs in the USA. It should be easy to fix the problems if there's only one committee. If there are, as I suspect, at least 50 committees, then wholesale, national change will be difficult, though still none of my business.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It might help if you actually read the quotes you're using in your posts. He didn't say "all" such people are undeserving.

This is not about what any one person said. I think the general consensus is that the people who didn't get selected are undeserving.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This tells me you live in a state that is just recently going to three person mechanics. And again, you're making an assumption that isn't warranted. Just because a guy goes to the wrong position once doesn't mean he doesn't know 3 person mechanics. At most, it shows he has recently worked a significant amount of 2-person and momentarily lost track of the opening mechanic.

A quick off the cuff question for you Snagwells. Would you toss the ball on a jump to start a playoff game if your U1 was out of position? Gotcha!!! U1 wasn't the only one that didn't' know where he was supposed to be. You can't have it both ways man. You can't say you have to attend camps and then put somebody out there that's never been to a camp. This is where bad attitudes are born.

Are you saying you were involved with the pregame discussion for a playoff game? I don't know of a single state where an official who hasn't worked a single HS game can get a playoff game.

All I'm going to say on this is it happens.

I'm confused about your problem. Are you upset that the old guys keep getting playoff assignments? Are you upset that young guys keep getting playoff assignments? Or are you upset that you haven't got a playoff assignment?

I'm not upset about any playoff assignments but I did get a little irk when the young punk told me to not to post out here anymore after receiving a playoff assignment. A wise man once said; be very careful not to pi$$ off the man that doesn't care as you may not like his response.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

This is not about what any one person said. I think the general consensus is that the people who didn't get selected are undeserving.

Not exactly. I think the general consensus is the ones who do get selected are deserving. There's a difference.
A corrolary to that consensus is that, for the most part, the guys who whine the most are generally not as qualified. 17 years of experience doesn't, by itself, make an official qualified for a playoff assignment. I've seen plenty of times when a 3rd year ref is better than his 15th year partner.

Originally Posted by Old School

A quick off the cuff question for you Snaqwells. Would you toss the ball on a jump to start a playoff game if your U1 was out of position? Gotcha!!!

I'd like to think I'd catch it; I've never had an U do that in a 3 man game. I've never seen it. Again, it doesn't mean they don't know 3 man mechanics. At least it doesn't mean that by itself. People make mistakes and sometimes get minor things confused.

Originally Posted by Old School

U1 wasn't the only one that didn't' know where he was supposed to be.

No, it just means U1 wasn't the only one who didn't catch his mistake. You're making assumptions and accusations you don't have enough information to make.

Originally Posted by Old School

You can't have it both ways man. You can't say you have to attend camps and then put somebody out there that's never been to a camp. This is where bad attitudes are born.

Again with the unfounded accusations. You have no idea, based on the information you've presented here, that these guys hadn't been to a camp.

Originally Posted by Old School

All I'm going to say on this is it happens.

Not that you care, but I don't believe it and I don't think anyone else here does either.

Originally Posted by Old School

I'm not upset about any playoff assignments but I did get a little irk when the young punk told me to not to post out here anymore after receiving a playoff assignment.

That's not how it played out. You gave him a backhanded compliment, backed it up, and pissed the guy off. You're the one who provoked his response. His playoff assignment had nothing to do with telling you to take a hike. It was your abrasive response that did it.

Originally Posted by Old School

A wise man once said; be very careful not to pi$$ off the man that doesn't care as you may not like his response.

A bit of advice from someone you don't like; find a new wise man. This guy's ripping you off.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not exactly. I think the general consensus is the ones who do get selected are deserving.

I totally agree with this statement. There is nothing to debate on the deserving as far as talent goes. The issue which I think you fail to realize or acknowledge is the ones that didn't get selected, that is the ones that where passed over. That is what I am talking about and the consensus amoung the officials that frequent this forum is that these people are the butt of officiating and I simply will not stand to hear that.

I've never had an U do that in a 3 man game. I've never seen it. Again, it doesn't mean they don't know 3 man mechanics. At least it doesn't mean that by itself. People make mistakes and sometimes get minor things confused. No, it just means U1 wasn't the only one who didn't catch his mistake. You're making assumptions and accusations you don't have enough information to make.Again with the unfounded accusations. You have no idea, based on the information you've presented here, that these guys hadn't been to a camp.

The tape don't lie!

Not that you care, but I don't believe it and I don't think anyone else here does either.

We've have to wait and see on that one. The jury still out.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I totally agree with this statement. There is nothing to debate on the deserving as far as talent goes. The issue which I think you fail to realize or acknowledge is the ones that didn't get selected, that is the ones that where passed over. That is what I am talking about and the consensus amoung the officials that frequent this forum is that these people are the butt of officiating and I simply will not stand to hear that.

Show me one post where someone has said all officials who don't get assigned post season don't deserve it. One. It's not in this thread.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You have no idea, based on the information you've presented here, that these guys hadn't been to a camp.

Originally Posted by Old School

The tape don't lie!

No, but it doesn't say whether the officials went to camp. You're making a leap of logic on this.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Not that you care, but I don't believe it and I don't think anyone else here does either.

Originally Posted by Old School

We've have to wait and see on that one. The jury still out.

Which jury? On whether or not we believe that there are state playoff officials in any of our 50 states that did not work a single hs varsity game during the season in which they got the playoff assignment? I doubt that it's still out; tell me what state that was in and we can pretty quickly verify whether it's possible.