Stop Sign Not Considered Harmful

[bradfordwilkins]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My opinion only:

There is nothing a stop sign can do that a low volume word or two cannot do.

Garth, I'd say you have to consider college ball when games are video taped (or even hs games w/ video taping) that don't have the audio capabilities to pick up your soft word to the coach. However, lets say a coach doesn't heed a warning and you have to give a tech a few plays later -- then at least on tape they have a visable sign that the coach was WARNED.

Of course, you don't always need to give a stop sign... some coaches just need a pleasant reminder to stay under control. But to say that there is nothing it can do is an overstatement.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Garth, I'd say you have to consider college ball when games are video taped (or even hs games w/ video taping) that don't have the audio capabilities to pick up your soft word to the coach. However, lets say a coach doesn't heed a warning and you have to give a tech a few plays later -- then at least on tape they have a visable sign that the coach was WARNED.

Since you did not read my other post about this, then let me say this about your assumption. You are assuming that every aspect of a game is video taped. It clearly is not. I have multiple video taped games just from this year and there many times you cannot see the officials in during the game. You also cannot see many dead ball situations. So now you are relying on the tape to show something it might not display at all. So when there is a FT, you might not see where the Trail official is located and who they are talking to.

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

Of course, you don't always need to give a stop sign... some coaches just need a pleasant reminder to stay under control. But to say that there is nothing it can do is an overstatement.

It is just as overstated to say it should be used or that it is not harmful (like the title of this thread). As I have said many times before, you cannot use what works for someone else and automatically translate that into your game. It also takes experience to know when to use something effectively. I just choose not to use a tool that can go one way or the other that is also very public.

Peace

[BillyMac]

From MJT: "BillyMac, do you type about 200 words/minute? You have some of the longest posts I have ever seen!"

MJT: I'm a terrible typer. On top of that I refuse to use the spell check offered by this Forum because I'm not very computer literate, I'm using Windows 98, I bet I'm one of the few Forum members to still use this 20th century operating system, and I'm afraid that I'll screw up something on my computer if I download a second spell check program. I actually use something called a dictionary, for our younger Forum members, this is a book with paper pages that contains a lot of correctly spelled words in alphabetical order, to check my spelling, again a 20th century technology. I'm always afraid that when I post I'll be "caught" by our "Annoying Spelling" Forum member.

I'm a member of my local association's training committee and I have maintained a virtual library of handouts, etc., regarding basketball rules, for the purpose of this committee, on my hard drive. I have also copied and pasted text from my previous posts, since the same questions seem to keep coming up as more new members join the Forum.

As a retired teacher, I'm now an analytical chemist, I guess that I can't stop teaching, whether it be as a member of my local association's training committee, or as a member of this Forum. After thirty-one years of teaching, I felt very confident teaching my science classes. Believe it or not, as a twenty-six year official, I feel less confident in my knowledge of basketball rules, which is why I often look to our more veteran Forum members for help and advice.

I hope that my posts don't bore too many Forum members. I'm just trying to give some of our younger Forum members some of the knowledge that I've gained over the past twenty-six years.

[Old School]

I am in your camp with the use of game management. I too am thrown under the bus, maybe not as bad as Tomgun when it comes to suggesting such a thing. You call it being cool. Is that the name for it, because I happen to think that there are simply some bad officials out here with personal agendas. Some of these guys like JR and Snagwells like to throw officials under the bus and then have you believe they are justified in doing so. I guess that's the new way of being cool but to me, I see their true colors. Unfortunately, they are allowed to continue their crusade of crushing most they come in contact with who challegense their way of thinking on this forum. The art of the stop sign was a point of emphasis a couple of years ago in NFHS. I continue to use it.

[MJT]

BillyMac, do you type about 200 words/minute? You have some of the longest posts I have ever seen!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

The art of the stop sign was a point of emphasis a couple of years ago in NFHS. I continue to use it.

The usage or non-usage of the "stop sign" has never been an NFHS POE.

It must be said though that Old School Stare Of Imminent Painful Death(tm) has been outlawed by the United Nations for humanitarian reasons.

Oh, the humanity, the humanity..."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The usage or non-usage of the "stop sign" has never been an NFHS POE.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

There's a card game I like to play that seems appropriate here. I call "Bull Sh!t." Show me where the NFHS has ever had a point of emphasis that even obliquely mentioned a "stop sign."

And you are right Snagwells, you are full of bull sh!t. Anywho, old chum, if you refer back to the NFHS POE Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05 page 6:

"HAD ENOUGH? STOP SIGN EM"
Conversation with a coach during a game is something that will always occur. Somtimes that exchange of information between a coach and official is conversational and sometimes it is not. When and where to draw the line is debatable and depends on many variables. When you're made the decision to let the coach know you've heard enough, let him or her know visually as well as verbally. While verbally informaing the coach enough is enough, give the coach the stop sign. By giving the coach warning verbally and visually, your physical actions will be on tape. If the coach crosses the proverbial line after that point, you'll be on the record as giving a warning to the coach.

Read it and weep. Now I know you and JR will probably switch this to mean something else like you did my 3 second interrupted dribble in the lane. But that's okay because I know what I'm going to call and do in both these situations.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

And you are right Snagwells, you are full of bull sh!t. Anywho, old chum, if you refer back to the NFHS POE Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05 page 6:

"HAD ENOUGH? STOP SIGN EM"
Conversation with a coach during a game is something that will always occur. Somtimes that exchange of information between a coach and official is conversational and sometimes it is not. When and where to draw the line is debatable and depends on many variables. When you're made the decision to let the coach know you've heard enough, let him or her know visually as well as verbally. While verbally informaing the coach enough is enough, give the coach the stop sign. By giving the coach warning verbally and visually, your physical actions will be on tape. If the coach crosses the proverbial line after that point, you'll be on the record as giving a warning to the coach.

Read it and weep. Now I know you and JR will probably switch this to mean something else like you did my 3 second interrupted dribble in the lane. But that's okay because I know what I'm going to call and do in both these situations.

Um, Old School, whatinthehell is the NFHS Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05?

Let me explain this to you real s-l-o-w-l-y.....

POE is short for "Points of Emphasis". POE's are found every year at the back of the NFHS rule book, right after Rule 10. They are also posted on the NFHS web site. They are not posted in the NFHS casebook, manual, comic book, etc.

Now, take a while and try to comprehend that.

Ready yet?

Not yet, eh?

How about now?

OK, we'll try to go a little further then. I am looking at the 2004-05 POE's found on pages 69 to 71 in the NFHS 2004-05 rule book. Nowhere in those POE's can be found any mention of stop sign usage. Further, I also have all of the rule book and associated POE's from 2000-01 on, and in NONE of them is found anything relating to stop sign usage either. And, for your further edification, page 6 of the 2004-05 rulebook shows the pictures of the people serving on that year's rules committee.

Now, knowing that you have never owned an NFHS rulebook in your entire officiating career/life, are you sure that you're not looking at something that your rec league maybe gave to you? You sureashell are NOT looking at any POE related to "stop signs".

It might help if you actually knew what a POE was in the first place too.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, Old School, whatinthehell is the NFHS Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05?

POE is short for "Points of Emphasis". POE's are found every year at the back of the NFHS rule book, right after Rule 10. They are also posted on the NFHS web site. They are not posted in the NFHS casebook, manual, comic book, etc.

Now, knowing that you have never owned an NFHS rulebook in your entire officiating career/life, are you sure that you're not looking at something that your rec league maybe gave to you? You sureashell are NOT looking at any POE related to "stop signs".

It might help if you actually knew what a POE was in the first place too.

Now let me explain this to you real S.L.O.W.L.Y. Go to the link below, moron.

http://secure.referee.com/index.cfm?...Product_ID=304

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

And you are right SNAQWELLS, you are full of bull sh!t. Anywho, old chum, if you refer back to the NFHS POE Official Publication Basketball Guide 04-05 page 6:

So you pull some third rate publication out of your azz and think it proves that ...

Originally Posted by Old School

The art of the stop sign was a point of emphasis a couple of years ago in NFHS.

Now it's just getting funny. You can't possibly be this obtuse.
BTW, I've been known to be full of $hit. This isn't one of those times. "Referee Magazine" does not equal a rule book.

Originally Posted by Old School

Now I know you and JR will probably switch this to mean something else like you did my 3 second interrupted dribble in the lane. But that's okay because I know what I'm going to call and do in both these situations.

Good grief, you got thoroughly exposed as a fraud in that debate, we didn't have to twist anything. I claimed the three second count continues during an interrupted dribble, you disagreed. It was pretty straight forward. Perhaps you can point to where I or JR twisted or shifted anything? I doubt it, but will apologize if you can show that I twisted your meanings in any way.
You do what you want, and as long as you're consistently wrong about it in your intramural games, no one will really care.

[BillyMac]

I'm a little slower than most Forum members so I'm a little confused.

What is the relationship between the the NASO/Referee Preseason Basketball Guide and the NFHS? I don't know what term to use, but I'll give it a shot. Is this Preseason Basketball Guide affiliated with, authorized by, or in any way connected to, or condoned by the NFHS? Can items in this publication be used to cite NFHS rule and/or interpretion situations and plays, with the backing of the NFHS? Does anyone know if anything appearing in this publication has ever later been rejected by the NFHS as not applying to NFHS rules or interpretations?

I hope that there is a Forum member out there who can answer some of these questions with facts and not with opinions. That may help us to once and for all "bury" the issue about the "stop sign". Has or does the NFHS, not the NASO or Referee, suggest that officials may use a visual warning to indicate to the coach, and to the video tape, and possibly to the crowd, and to your partner, that "enough is enough"?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

Is that the name for it, because I happen to think that there are simply some bad officials out here with personal agendas. Some of these guys like JR and Snagwells like to throw officials under the bus and then have you believe they are justified in doing so.

Oh no, OS thinks I'm a bad official. I may as well hang it up. If calling you out for your numerous and frequent mistakes is throwing you under the bus, I suggest you either start wearing body armor or get a rule book. That said, I challenge you to show me where I threw an actual official under the bus.

Originally Posted by Old School

I guess that's the new way of being cool but to me, I see their true colors.

I never did get to sit at the cool table. Boo Hoo.

Originally Posted by Old School

Unfortunately, they are allowed to continue their crusade of crushing most they come in contact with who challegense their way of thinking on this forum.

You're projecting now. You've demonstrated repeatedly that you don't know the rules and you aren't really all that concerned about it. Just because some of us feel compelled to correct your errors doesn't mean we're "crushing most they come in contact with." I disagree, quite civilly, with several people here on several issues. There seems to be a different variable in this equation than mere disagreement; maybe you can find it.

Originally Posted by Old School

The art of the stop sign was a point of emphasis a couple of years ago in NFHS. I continue to use it.

There's a card game I like to play that seems appropriate here. I call "Bull Sh!t." Show me where the NFHS has ever had a point of emphasis that even obliquely mentioned a "stop sign."

[Time2Ref]

I used to use the stop sign, but no longer find it particularly helpful.

I don't mind if others use it, as I once found it to be a useful tool.

I thought that I was drawing a line for the coach. But I realized that the line I was drawing was in my mind for my own thought process.

On the humorous side:
If your hand is a little bit too high when giving the stop sign, on film it looks like the "Heil Hitler" mechanic.

[JRutledge]

I think we need to put this conversation in some context. Most of the stories about the stop sign that people decide to tell about their usage of the "stop sign" ends up in a T anyway. That does not sound like a very good tool if you ask me. If you do something that only exacerbates the behavior, I do not see that as something.

Also how can I tell a coach not to make gestures and as an official I am making a gesture that everyone can see?

On Friday I was working a Regional Championship game. The top seed had a very experienced coach who coached a Division 1 program in the Chicago area at one. I made an obvious travel call very early in the game after a loose ball where a player gained possession against this coach’s team. I come in front of him after the ball was ruled dead. I was standing right next to this coach and simply told him, “We are not going to yell at me all night about travel calls.” He started to yell at me again and I said, “We are not going to yell at me when I am talking to you.” I think proceeded to explain to him what took place. After a timeout he tried to talk to one of my partners who was a State Final Official and works in a supervisory role with officials on another level. All my partner said to him, “Coach, there is a right way to complain about a call.” No one heard these conversations (it was very loud in the gym) and the coach behaved himself the rest of the night. He did not yell at me or any of my partners again. He was warned as well and he got the message. No stop sign given and no T given. I consider that a win-win.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I was standing right next to this coach and simply told him, “We are not going to yell at me all night about travel calls.” He started to yell at me again and I said, “We are not going to yell at me when I am talking to you.”

Had the same thing in a Girls regional play-off last year. Home coach was standing next to me yelling in my ear. I turned my head slightly towards him and said "You need to stop yelling in my ear!". He immediately walked away from me and nobody in the gym had any idea I said something to him. No reason to give him a visual stop sign for all to see in this situation.