Five Fouls Not Enough?

[Jim Bob]

I'm really tired of seeing good players sit on the bench much of the game because of foul trouble. The really bad part is the first half when a player picks up two fouls early and has to sit the rest of the half. ANYBODY can pick up two quick fouls -- and officials can certainly make mistakes. It seems to me that the answer is simple -- up the limit from five to six. Five has been the limit since the typical college score was 25-17 -- it certainly doesn't seem appropriate in the fast-paced, tight-defense game we see today. I believe a six-foul limit was tried a few years ago for pre-conference games somewhere, and apparently it wasn't popular. I wonder why not?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

I'm really tired of seeing good players sit on the bench much of the game because of foul trouble. The really bad part is the first half when a player picks up two fouls early and has to sit the rest of the half. ANYBODY can pick up two quick fouls -- and officials can certainly make mistakes. It seems to me that the answer is simple -- up the limit from five to six. Five has been the limit since the typical college score was 25-17 -- it certainly doesn't seem appropriate in the fast-paced, tight-defense game we see today. I believe a six-foul limit was tried a few years ago for pre-conference games somewhere, and apparently it wasn't popular. I wonder why not?

Why not? It would go directly in opposition to the movement to clean up rough play. Allow more fouls, you'll get more physical play.

[deecee]

how will that extra foul help anything -- now we can expect sloppier defense and more hacks...great job -- I propose 3 fouls but I will settle for 4.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

I'm really tired of seeing good players sit on the bench much of the game because of foul trouble. The really bad part is the first half when a player picks up two fouls early and has to sit the rest of the half. ANYBODY can pick up two quick fouls -- and officials can certainly make mistakes. It seems to me that the answer is simple -- up the limit from five to six. Five has been the limit since the typical college score was 25-17 -- it certainly doesn't seem appropriate in the fast-paced, tight-defense game we see today. I believe a six-foul limit was tried a few years ago for pre-conference games somewhere, and apparently it wasn't popular. I wonder why not?

OK Fanboy, go ahead and tell us which of your favorite teams keeps losing cause the coach won't tell em to quit slapping at the ball.

SOmeone get me some popcorn please. This one ought to get good.

[Camron Rust]

There is a team I worked twice this season that seems to have an interesting strategy along these lines.

It appears that they're coached to go aggressively at the ball without regard to fouls with the hope that either the officials will get tired of calling the fouls and will only call the "worst" of them and/or the other team will cower from the repeated contact allowing the aggressive team to take over the game. It makes for a really ugly and unenjoyable game.

They rotate a lot of players onto the floor so foul trouble is not particulary a concern for most of the team.

In both of their games, we probably called over 15 fouls per half on this team with NO adjustment whatsoever from the team. They just keep bumping, slapping, and grabbing.

The coach didn't like me one bit because I wouldn't "let them play". I persisted in not allowing them to pummel their opponents into the floor until they gave up.

Note that I'm just as happy to have a half with under 5-6 fouls per team (and I've had several of those too).

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There is a team I worked twice this season that seems to have an interesting strategy along these lines.

It appears that they're coached to go aggressively at the ball without regard to fouls with the hope that either the officials will get tired of calling the fouls and will only call the "worst" of them and/or the other team will cower from the repeated contact allowing the aggressive team to take over the game. It makes for a really ugly and unenjoyable game.

They rotate a lot of players onto the floor so foul trouble is not particulary a concern for most of the team.

In both of their games, we probably called over 15 fouls per half on this team with NO adjustment whatsoever from the team. They just keep bumping, slapping, and grabbing.

The coach didn't like me one bit because I wouldn't "let them play". I persisted in not allowing them to pummel their opponents into the floor until they gave up.

Note that I'm just as happy to have a half with under 5-6 fouls per team (and I've had several of those too).

Wow Camron -- were you at my game last night? This describes the visiting team almost exactly. First half, I think we called around 12 or 13 fouls on them, and at halftime, the board said 10-3 (they stop putting them up after 10). Second half was more of the same, and in the end, I think we probably called around 15-16 on the visitors, and 6 on the home team. THing was, visitors were up 4 after the first quarter, 15 at the half, and won going away by about 25 or so. SOme nights, though, you just gotta keep blowing the whistle.

[Texas Aggie]

This is the main reason why I favor a rule change to eliminate the 1 and 1, go to 2 shots after the 6th foul, and 2 shots and the ball after the 10th foul.

No one seems to like that idea about the above, which seems to happen to all of us. I guarantee you: the team will adjust.

[Stat-Man]

Personally, 5 fouls would be plenty if players were taught early on that the handchecking and lcutch-n-grab are going to be called and called consistently.

One rule change I'd like to see seriusly is to adopt a rule similar to the NBA for the 2nd and 4th quarter where if a team has less than 6 team fouls, the bonus is shot for appropriate fouls after the second foul inside 2 minutes.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

I'm really tired of seeing good players sit on the bench much of the game because of foul trouble. The really bad part is the first half when a player picks up two fouls early and has to sit the rest of the half. ANYBODY can pick up two quick fouls -- and officials can certainly make mistakes. It seems to me that the answer is simple -- up the limit from five to six. Five has been the limit since the typical college score was 25-17 -- it certainly doesn't seem appropriate in the fast-paced, tight-defense game we see today. I believe a six-foul limit was tried a few years ago for pre-conference games somewhere, and apparently it wasn't popular. I wonder why not?

The solution is simple, Jimmy Crack Corn (and I don't care). Don't foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

The solution is simple, Jimmy Crack Corn (and I don't care). Don't foul.

Rich, you've missed the most important part.

It is *your* fault these players get in foul trouble. Adding a 6th foul would give you 1 more chance to screw it up per player.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Jim Bob

I'm really tired of seeing good players sit on the bench much of the game because of foul trouble. The really bad part is the first half when a player picks up two fouls early and has to sit the rest of the half. ANYBODY can pick up two quick fouls -- and officials can certainly make mistakes. It seems to me that the answer is simple -- up the limit from five to six. Five has been the limit since the typical college score was 25-17 -- it certainly doesn't seem appropriate in the fast-paced, tight-defense game we see today. I believe a six-foul limit was tried a few years ago for pre-conference games somewhere, and apparently it wasn't popular. I wonder why not?

Jim, please take this the right way, and also know I have never seen you work, but are these fouls being called on an advantage/disadvantage basis? Maybe you are and there is nothing you can do then but I see many officials who call little bumps on rebounds and such that had NO effect on the opposing player at all. These do not have to be called and can help somewhat. I am not saying don't call any fouls, or fouls on good contact, but see if the advantage was gained. If it is, and the team is just very aggressive, then you cannot do anything about it and they will have to adjust. Just a possibility I am bringing up.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

This is the main reason why I favor a rule change to eliminate the 1 and 1, go to 2 shots after the 6th foul, and 2 shots and the ball after the 10th foul.

Two shots and the ball is far too punitive.

[AFHusker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Two shots and the ball is far too punitive.

It would put an end to the strategic fouling at the end of the game(with 10 fouls or more).

[Red_Killian]

I may be off base here but I seem to remember here in Minnesota (yes we are the state who bucks the Fed with 18 min halves, monitor usage at State Tournament games, visitors wear white) a number of years ago, before I started officiating, a player could stay in the game after his 5th foul. Subsequent fouls by that player resulted in 2 free throws plus the ball (l don't remember but I think it was at the division line). I don't recall there was limit on how many additional fouls a player could get and keep playing as long as his team was willing to pay the price.

I admit I am somewhat vague on the details, and exactly when this was used and how long it continued. This was definitely back in my fanboy days so I plead fan ignorance on the exact rule. Any old-time MN officials recall the details better than me?

[amcginthy]

From a coaches perspective - I think 5 fouls is plenty, I don't like the idea of 6 - I want my girls to know that they have to play defense correctly - teach it correctly and there really isn't much of an issue. Sure, I get frustrated when my best defender picks up quick fouls - but 99% of the time - it's there fault... I think the important thing is that what I read in another post in this thread - calls that are consistent... what's called in a game changes from game to game, but it shouldn't change from half to half of the same game - if you call minor contact in the first quarter - call the same thing in the 4th... as a coach, this has been my biggest complaint about the officials we have had this year - they just didn't seem to be consistent throughout the games, and with each other - one ref might call the smallest contact, while the other wouldn't call an assault - this makes it hard for kids (especially junior high / freshman in HS) to understand what they can and can't do - what is acceptable and what isn't... why one time it's a foul, and another it isn't...