I think interesting question

[81artmonk]

I should have known better than to post again. This post doesn't apply to all but those few who really can't read and comprehend what they read.
The reason I reposted was that I was getting answers to the rule and not the situation. I know the rule and didn't need it rehashed or answered for me. I wanted your thoughts on that particular situation. It was kinda of a what do you think about this. Instead I got answers in the vein of I was attacking refs, I wasn't, I was just wanting to know your feelings about it. geesh.
I know I am going to get crucified for saying this but I just seem to not be able to keep my mouth shut. From my short time on this board, it appears to me that not all, but some of you refs have a real chip on your shoulder towards anyone who isn't one. I asked a seeminly innocent question and I get answers like, "geesh, what do you expect from us" " give us the names of those refs and we will deal with it" Can't you answer a question without APPEARING to be hostile??
I've gotten a few real good answers from what appears to be level headed good kind hearted refs, but I find myself not wanting to post afraid that I will get nailed for asking a stupid question or one that rubs some refs the wrong way. Oh well.

[deecee]

i would agree with most of what you just wrote -- good observation

however you ask us to comment on the difference in judgement from one ref to another and you EXPECT an answer -- thats a bit unreasonable. I cannot comment on anyone elses judgment or expect anyone to comment on mine.

you are complaining about a system that knows THIS is an issue HOWEVER there is NO REAL way to FIX it. An earlier poster hit it on the head where he asked for names so he could straighten them out JMO.

[Ref Daddy]

Alas judgment vs. personal interpretations.

The default SHOULD BE an intentional unless the player really makes a legitimate attempt to get the ball.

I think right now its the other way around.

[BLydic]

Please read post #4 of this thread, it answered your question perfectly.

Your words:

"One week we get penalized for it and it costs us the game and the next week the oppossing team gets rewarded for doing it becuase the ref doesn't call it?"

Which part of this sentence do you think might rub refs the wrong way?

[AFHusker]

Originally Posted by BLydic

Please read post #4 of this thread, it answered your question perfectly.

Your words:

"One week we get penalized for it and it costs us the game and the next week the oppossing team gets rewarded for doing it becuase the ref doesn't call it?"

Which part of this sentence do you think might rub refs the wrong way?

That's the part that stuck out most to me.

Without seeing the plays it is tough to determine if any of us would have called it any different. I believe the intent of your question is to get an answer as to why one official will call an intentional while another may not call it on the exact same play. What one official sees as not making a proper play on the ball, another sees as proper. It is a judgement call. What is the proper way go for the ball when trying to foul for strategic purposes?

[BillyMac]

This is part of my pregame:

End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn’t get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey from behind, or if the ballhandler receives a bear hug, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I should have known better than to post again. This post doesn't apply to all but those few who really can't read and comprehend what they read.
The reason I reposted was that I was getting answers to the rule and not the situation. I know the rule and didn't need it rehashed or answered for me. I wanted your thoughts on that particular situation. It was kinda of a what do you think about this. Instead I got answers in the vein of I was attacking refs, I wasn't, I was just wanting to know your feelings about it. geesh.
I know I am going to get crucified for saying this but I just seem to not be able to keep my mouth shut. From my short time on this board, it appears to me that not all, but some of you refs have a real chip on your shoulder towards anyone who isn't one. I asked a seeminly innocent question and I get answers like, "geesh, what do you expect from us" " give us the names of those refs and we will deal with it" Can't you answer a question without APPEARING to be hostile??
I've gotten a few real good answers from what appears to be level headed good kind hearted refs, but I find myself not wanting to post afraid that I will get nailed for asking a stupid question or one that rubs some refs the wrong way. Oh well.

My feeble attempt at sarcasm failed. I need lessons from Mr. Padgett or should I say Captain Padgett.

Truly no hostility was intended, but I thought the question a bit inane. There is no good answer as others have said. This is a judgement call. And judgement calls depend on the moment. To debate why one ref calls something and another does not: that answer that can be definitively given. All we can say is that most associations and chapters do strive for consistentcy among refs - maybe where you live they don't do such a good job.

[81artmonk]

Now I understand. Thank you. Your sarcasm comes off as rude and hostile, but now that you have explained yourself, I can understand better. I guess without knowing everyone on a personal level things can be misconstued. I don't want to sound condecending, but From my listening to this forum you refs seem to live in a logical and straight line world so I can see how asking a open ended question about judgement could be a difficult task... ha ha. We all learn from our mistakes and I have mine.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

... Here's my situation. I have about 50% of the refs that call our games that state to me they would never make that call.

You do realize that this statement means that 50% of the refs you asked are wrong.

[co2ice]

By any chance are you the same Art Monk from Long Island, That played for the real Cardinals? If you are email me at [email protected] Thanks

[MJT]

It will not be consistant cuz it is judgement. The VERY obvious ones will probably called by all.

[81artmonk]

I've heard that alot even from the refs I get for my games, the "judgement call"
issue. I understand how some things become judgement calls, but some things are just obvious. committing the foul and not going for the ball. Player A throws the ball into his/her teammate, player B bearhugs player A from behind to commit the foul. Honestly, how is that a judgement call?? Or a push from behind?? I really can't see how those can be construed as judgement calls? In those cases the player is clearly not going for the ball. Just curious??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I've heard that alot even from the refs I get for my games, the "judgement call"
issue. I understand how some things become judgement calls, but some things are just obvious. committing the foul and not going for the ball. Player A throws the ball into his/her teammate, player B bearhugs player A from behind to commit the foul. Honestly, how is that a judgement call?? Or a push from behind?? I really can't see how those can be construed as judgement calls? In those cases the player is clearly not going for the ball. Just curious??

Now you're talking about your judgment versus the official's judgment. Unfortunately, it's the officials job to make those judgments, not yours.

Don't you think that your judgment might just be clouded a little bit? Maybe towards your team?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I should have known better than to post again. This post doesn't apply to all but those few who really can't read and comprehend what they read.
The reason I reposted was that I was getting answers to the rule and not the situation. I know the rule and didn't need it rehashed or answered for me. I wanted your thoughts on that particular situation.

How do you expect us to pass judgement on a play we didn't see? Seriously!!!

All we can tell you is what the rules and POE's tells us we SHOULD do and what we may have done in similar situations.

What are you looking for us to tell you? As I said in an earlier thread started by you, I think you are being disingenuous. I believe your real reason to post here is to go back and tell some official "See, I told you so!"

I noticed you didn't reply to my last post to you in the thread you started concerning backcourt violations. Is that maybe b/c you were wrong and the official was right?!?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I've heard that alot even from the refs I get for my games, the "judgement call"
issue. I understand how some things become judgement calls, but some things are just obvious. committing the foul and not going for the ball. Player A throws the ball into his/her teammate, player B bearhugs player A from behind to commit the foul. Honestly, how is that a judgement call?? Or a push from behind?? I really can't see how those can be construed as judgement calls? In those cases the player is clearly not going for the ball. Just curious??

Obvious to whom. I know that I officiate more games in a year than the vast majority of coaches will coach in a year. I know I work about 40-60 regular season games every year. I probably work about the same in the summer and off-season months. I watch my games on tape when I get them and I watch my fellow official's games in person when I am not working or during the post-season or tournaments I might be associated with. And you are going to tell me that you know more than someone like me or others that might work even more games? Also the rules are clear that all contact is not a foul and there are philosophies that you may not be aware of to not call everything that simply looks bad. Also when we know a player is trying to foul, it is instructed to get the first contact. So even without seeing these plays, does not mean they happen the way you say they did. Judgment also means that not every official shares the same level of judgment. So what one official might call, another official might completely miss. That is the nature of the beast just like not all coaches know how to teach a particular offense or defense and get their players to where they can execute on a regular basis.

Peace