Clock Didn't Start

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

HS boys game, 7.7 seconds left until half time. Ball is thrown it, clock guy forgets to start clock, several seconds go by before refs notice. What should the refs do at that point?

There is no excuse for 1 of 3 people not seeing the clock start properly. As soon as the ball is touched inbounds, 1 and if not all 3 should check to make sure it started. When it didn't, I kill it immediately and put 7.7 back on the clock and do it again, unless the play has an immediate and I mean immediate scoring possibility.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

When it didn't, I kill it immediately and put 7.7 back on the clock and do it again,

What rule basis would you use to do this?

[bronco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What rule basis would you use to do this?

If the clock isn't running, the ref kills it immediately and puts the previous known time on the clock. I have a lot less problem with that than with the statement that all "1 if not all 3 should check to make sure it started." I don't think all the refs should be focused on the clock, there is enough to watch on the court.

[Bad Zebra]

This is a game management issue, especially if you know you have students working the table. I like to pre-game the topic by just saying "let's make a habit of glancing at the clock during the start and end of dead balls if we can." If you have a $hit storm taking place under the basket, then obviously you can't, but I think it's a good practice to try to get into.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I like to pre-game the topic by just saying "let's make a habit of glancing at the clock during the start and end of dead balls if we can."

It just amazes me that this has to be done. I mean, it's like your partner coming over in the middle of a game and saying "You know, it would be nice if you could, like, watch the game from time to time and occasionally blow your whistle if you see a foul."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bronco

If the clock isn't running, the ref kills it immediately and puts the previous known time on the clock.

Why? Any time that ran off was legit. Remember, the clock didn't start on time. You don't add time back on because too little ran off....that's going the wrong direction.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bronco

If the clock isn't running, the ref kills it immediately and puts the previous known time on the clock.

That's the part I was respondiing towards - essentially allowing a "do-over". As we have dicussed many times before, "do-overs" are not allowed under NFHS rules, or also NCAA-W. Iow, in the OP's scenario, the ball is being dribbled up the court, and the officials notice that the clock has not started, so they blow the whistle and stop play. If the officials had definite knowledge of the amount of time that should've been taken off, (say, for example, a backcourt count), they can take that amount of time off the clock and resume play where the ball was when the whistle blew. If, by some chance they do not have definite knowledge of the amount of time, the only thing that is allowed is to put the ball back in play where it was when the whistle blew, and leave the clock alone. You cannot allow a "do-over", where you start all over again from the original spot. Yes, it sounds like the fair thing to do, but it is not what the rules state.

That is why the officials need to be aware of the clock during those end-of-quarter and end-of-game situations. It may not seem fair, since that is what the table is being paid to do. But that is what separates the "good" officials, the ones that know how to call fouls and travels, from the "great" officials, the ones that get those difficult situations correct when it counts. It may only happen once or twice a season, but you need to be ready when it happens.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That's the part I was respondiing towards - essentially allowing a "do-over". As we have dicussed many times before, "do-overs" are not allowed under NFHS rules, or also NCAA-W. Iow, in the OP's scenario, the ball is being dribbled up the court, and the officials notice that the clock has not started, so they blow the whistle and stop play. If the officials had definite knowledge of the amount of time that should've been taken off, (say, for example, a backcourt count), they can take that amount of time off the clock and resume play where the ball was when the whistle blew. If, by some chance they do not have definite knowledge of the amount of time, the only thing that is allowed is to put the ball back in play where it was when the whistle blew, and leave the clock alone. You cannot allow a "do-over", where you start all over again from the original spot. Yes, it sounds like the fair thing to do, but it is not what the rules state.

That is why the officials need to be aware of the clock during those end-of-quarter and end-of-game situations. It may not seem fair, since that is what the table is being paid to do. But that is what separates the "good" officials, the ones that know how to call fouls and travels, from the "great" officials, the ones that get those difficult situations correct when it counts. It may only happen once or twice a season, but you need to be ready when it happens.

So if you are saying we have to give the ball to them at the spot we blew the whistle, then if all home teams were down and the clock keeper knew this was the case, then we could end up seeing clock keeping "homers" not starting the clock on purpose and then we end up giving that team the ball back in the front court, with only a couple of seconds wasted, when in fact it was a couple more seconds than that. I know there is not that many unhonest scorekeepers out there (at least I hope not), but just trying to make a point. I know my way might not be the right way either, but I just want to do whats closest to being fair for both teams, and giving the offensive team the ball another 28 ft. or so up the court with little to no time off the clock does not seem fair. I'm open to other ideas.

And how do we have definite knowledge with a count? The only thing that keeps proper time is the clock (when its running). I would have just as good a shot at guessing how much time came off the clock and getting it correct, in contrast to counting, because everyones count is usually slower than the real time that elapses. Yes it would be close but it would not be definite. Would it?

Just my take.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So if you are saying we have to give the ball to them at the spot we blew the whistle, then if all home teams were down and the clock keeper knew this was the case, then we could end up seeing clock keeping "homers" not starting the clock on purpose and then we end up giving that team the ball back in the front court, with only a couple of seconds wasted, when in fact it was a couple more seconds than that. I know there is not that many unhonest scorekeepers out there (at least I hope not), but just trying to make a point. I know my way might not be the right way either, but I just want to do whats closest to being fair for both teams, and giving the offensive team the ball another 28 ft. or so up the court with little to no time off the clock does not seem fair. I'm open to other ideas.

And how do we have definite knowledge with a count? The only thing that keeps proper time is the clock (when its running). I would have just as good a shot at guessing how much time came off the clock and getting it correct, in contrast to counting, because everyones count is usually slower than the real time that elapses. Yes it would be close but it would not be definite. Would it?

Just my take.

Your count would be considered definite knowledge. In fact, I believe that is specifically mentioned in the case book as "definite knowledge". It doesn't matter if your count is accurate to within atomic clock specifications. It can be a backcourt count, closely-guarded counts, or even as some have suggested, keeping a running count in your head if you see the clock is not running and there is not a good place to stop play. Guessing, unfortunately, is not allowed, and is not "definite knowledge". As far as what's fair, I would stick with what the rules say. If you try to inject you opinion of what's fair, outside the rules, then you are definitely favoring one team over another.

I think the incidents of unethical timekeepers is rare. More often than not, the reason the clock didn't start is because they are so interested in the game they forget they have a job to do and become a fan for a few moments. This is all the more reason for us to be aware of the clock in these instances. Maybe because I'm used to working with a shot clock, and the problems that it can bring, it has forced me to be much more aware of the clock as a whole during the game. I feel it actually adds a layer of credibility to the crew if you can notice and fix a clock problem.

In that ideal world, the table will take care of that, and you can concentrate on the activity on the floor. But in the real world, clock issues are part of the officials' jurisdiction, so they need to be aware of them.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

1) I know my way might not be the right way either, but I just want to do whats closest to being fair for both teams, and giving the offensive team the ball another 28 ft. or so up the court with little to no time off the clock does not seem fair. I'm open to other ideas.

2) And how do we have definite knowledge with a count? The only thing that keeps proper time is the clock (when its running). I would have just as good a shot at guessing how much time came off the clock and getting it correct, in contrast to counting, because everyones count is usually slower than the real time that elapses. Yes it would be close but it would not be definite. Would it?

1) Here's an idea. Just follow the appropriate rule book and don't make up your own rules. Read NCAA rule 5-3AR120. It states The referee cannot correct this official timer's mistake unless he or she knows exactly how much time elapsed while the game clock was stopped." There is NO provision for a do-over either. Under NCAA rules, you could use the monitor to determine definite knowledge. Under NFHS rules, it has to be an official's count of some kind. I guarantee that if you try to be "fair" in an NCAA or an NFHS game without following the rules, that might be your last game for a while at that level if you're found out. And if it's a D1 game, you sureasheck will be found out.


2) Your count IS definite knowledge. See case book play 5.10.2. The rulesmakers have also taken care of your count accuracy concerns in another case play--5.10.1SitB. That RULING states that "If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in counting seconds." Again, the rules do NOT allow guessing. Ever.

[M&M Guy]

Yea - what he said.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

And how do we have definite knowledge with a count? The only thing that keeps proper time is the clock (when its running). I would have just as good a shot at guessing how much time came off the clock and getting it correct, in contrast to counting, because everyones count is usually slower than the real time that elapses. Yes it would be close but it would not be definite. Would it?

Just my take.

By that logic I guess you have never called the 3, 5, or 10 second violations ever.

If you have, then why, because your count was innaccurate and you did not have definite knowledge that a violation had occurred. It would only be a guess and therefore you cheated the team you calledit on.

Or course you could be calling these timing violations by looking at the clock but admitting that would still get you in hot water with us on this forum.