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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 12:04pm
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Reports but Doesn't Enter

MJT posted a question about a team member reporting to substitute for a player shooting a free throw and then replacing a different player after a made shot. All seemed to agree that this was permissible.

What if, after the made free throw, the horn sounds for the substitution but the team member does not enter when beckoned and returns to the bench? I don't see any rule that makes it illegal. Is there a rule that would prohibit this "strategy"? If the rules do not specifically prohibit the practice, it seems to me that an official could be justified to rule an unsporting technical for multiple occurrences. What say you all?
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 12:08pm
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It is nothing, leave it alone. This happens from time to time because something takes place on the court where the coach does not want to make a sub. Do not call an unsporting T on anyone for this. As long as the player goes back to the bench, leave it alone. The only think I would say is not to just let a player sit at the table with absolutely no intention on coming into the game. But that is something you can solve by just telling the player to go back to the bench. Do not give a T for something you cannot support in anyway by the rules as it relates to this issue.

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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 12:10pm
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I have had this happen, no problem.

I agree with JRutledge let it go.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 12:13pm
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I can see how a coach might try this; but until we get direction from either the state or the NFHS (or possibly my local association, but I don't see them doing it without the state being behind it), it would be a legitimate tactic.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 01:46pm
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Are you saying that there is no possibility of this tactic being used to make a travesty of the game?
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 01:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Are you saying that there is no possibility of this tactic being used to make a travesty of the game?
Anything is possible, but that is a stretch. Until this starts happening, I would not even worry about it. And I really do not know why a coach would even want to do this as an arranged tactic.

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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 03:43pm
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I agree with Rut. What is to be gained by a coach employing this tactic?

Send the sub back and promptly put the ball in play.

Rule 3-3-2

The substitute shall remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she SHALL enter immediately.

Unfortunately there is no penalty given. Seems to me the Substitute technical in Rule 10 used to have failure to enter when beckoned but it is no longer there.

As a stretch you could assess the Team T (Rule 10-1-5b) if you feel it is a tactic by the coach but I highly discourage this.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 03:53pm
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
I agree with Rut. What is to be gained by a coach employing this tactic?
What would be gained by the coach could be get his dead ball press set up every time his team shot a FT without having to sub for the shooter.

So if a coach did this everytime, and did not bring the sub in, you wouldn't do anything? I think in that case, you warn him and then a T would be warrented. Now, if it happens a time or two a game, I can see it not being a problem, but every time?

Now I know it is not to difficult to just have the sub report for someone else after the ball has been tossed to the shooter, but easier to say, "for the shooter" and then sub for someone else, or better yet bring them back to the bench every time.

Last edited by MJT; Sun Feb 18, 2007 at 03:58pm.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 04:21pm
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It is only a tactic IF the officials continue to let him do it. And he will only try to continue the practice if he sees the official will let him succeed in additional attempts.

The first time it happens I may let the sub go back and give the benefit of the doubt that the coach was calling the sub back before I stopped the game to beckon him in. But I will also tell the coach this is a one time deal. Next time any sub is at the table when I beckon him in the sub IS coming into the game. Once he gets the message the sub will have to come in he will stop the practice.

I said a T is a stretch because I never let it get that far so it is an issue.

If I do more shame on me as the official that the coach trying the tactic.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 04:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
It is only a tactic IF the officials continue to let him do it. And he will only try to continue the practice if he sees the official will let him succeed in additional attempts.

The first time it happens I may let the sub go back and give the benefit of the doubt that the coach was calling the sub back before I stopped the game to beckon him in. But I will also tell the coach this is a one time deal. Next time any sub is at the table when I beckon him in the sub IS coming into the game. Once he gets the message the sub will have to come in he will stop the practice.

I said a T is a stretch because I never let it get that far so it is an issue.

If I do more shame on me as the official that the coach trying the tactic.
I agree with you on the sub always going back to the table.

Daryl, would you do the same thing if he continually puts him in for another player other than the shooter?
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 04:38pm
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I don't care who comes out, all I know is the sub is coming in and one player is going out...doesn't have to be the shooter.

Remember the sub is not required by rule to say WHO he is replacing. He only has to report to table and give HIS number
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 04:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
I don't care who comes out, all I know is the sub is coming in and one player is going out...doesn't have to be the shooter.

Remember the sub is not required by rule to say WHO he is replacing. He only has to report to table and give HIS number
I know that, but if they sub 2 guys, one says he is for the shooter so he doesn't come in before the 2nd FT and then after the last FT always comes in for someone other that the shooter after saying he was for the shooter. I am not talking once in a while, I'm talking every time.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 05:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJT
I know that, but if they sub 2 guys, one says he is for the shooter so he doesn't come in before the 2nd FT and then after the last FT always comes in for someone other that the shooter after saying he was for the shooter. I am not talking once in a while, I'm talking every time.
Since the sub sould always report after the shooter has the ball, this "tactic" doesn't bother me. The effect is the same -- a substitution occurs after the second made FT.
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Old Sun Feb 18, 2007, 08:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long
I don't care who comes out, all I know is the sub is coming in and one player is going out...doesn't have to be the shooter.

Remember the sub is not required by rule to say WHO he is replacing. He only has to report to table and give HIS number
That works.
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