First Time Varsity coach

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

btw, I would have viewed that "until two summers ago" comment as a huge red flag and definitely would have asked him what he meant in order to smooth it over and set him right the first time he said that. No sense letting him think you came in intending to screw him.

That was the point I was trying to get to. That comment only came about b/c of JRut's initial statement.

[Big2Cat]

I remember officiating in the early days, and my college roommate was the Sophomore coach at a local high school. His teams were always so-so, but for some reason they were 9-0 when I had the games. Pure coincidence, as most of the games were never even that close.

I was so relieved when they finally lost--I was scared someone would know we were roommates in college and think I was doing it on purpose. Thankfully, they (coaches) don't seem so suspicious all the time at the soph. level, and no one ever complained about any of the games.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That was the point I was trying to get to. That comment only came about b/c of JRut's initial statement.

Well, I disagree with that.

This guy had a bad history with Jeff that Jeff did not remember. It would have come out eventually.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That was the point I was trying to get to. That comment only came about b/c of JRut's initial statement.

If you say so.

I think I have a right to respond to a coach and I think I have a right to make the point. His comment did not bother me, so I do not see the issue. If that is something you would get all hot and bothered by, then that is your right. I guess we all have our own temperature level. I just do not sweat the small stuff. In my opinion that was very "small."

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you say so.

I think I have a right to respond to a coach and I think I have a right to make the point. His comment did not bother me, so I do not see the issue. If that is something you would get all hot and bothered by, then that is your right. I guess we all have our own temperature level. I just do not sweat the small stuff. In my opinion that was very "small."

Peace

Sometimes you are so full of yourself I surprised you can fit a computer in the same room with you. I'm "Hot and bothered" about what? I said I would ignore the assistant. How does that equate to "hot and bothered"? My opinion focused on your comments TOWARDS the asst coach, not any of the coach's comments towards you. You need to work on your comprehension skills, they are really lacking. If there is anybody who doesn't "sweat the small stuff", that would be me. I don't feel a need for long-winded comments to assistant coaches just to show off that I knew their coach "way back when, when he was a nobody." Maybe that's your style, but as you say, one size doesn't fit all.

Why did you start this thread if you are going to be so defensive any about any opinion that doesn't pat you on the back? I'm sorry, was I supposed to applaud for your outstanding wit and great communications skills.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Sometimes you are so full of yourself I surprised you can fit a computer in the same room with you. I'm "Hot and bothered" about what? I said I would ignore the assistant. How does that equate to "hot and bothered"? My opinion focused on your comments TOWARDS the asst coach, not any of the coach's comments towards you. You need to work on your comprehension skills, they are really lacking. If there is anybody who doesn't "sweat the small stuff", that would be me. I don't feel a need for long-winded comments to assistant coaches just to show off that I knew their coach "way back when, when he was a nobody." Maybe that's your style, but as you say, one size doesn't fit all.

Why did you start this thread if you are going to be so defensive any about any opinion that doesn't pat you on the back? I'm sorry, was I supposed to applaud for your outstanding wit and great communications skills.

It sounds like the person that is defensive is you. I posted a story because I thought the situation was funny. Many "respected" officials noticed that and got that point who I know have some years under their belt. I told my partners the story I worked with and they found it funny. I talked to someone through PM and at a meeting tonight. No one said they had a problem with what I said or did or even made the same point you are trying to make. They just found it funny and took it as another war story.

I learned long time ago in my officiating career that what one official does may not work for another official. I know I cannot say things that certain veterans say and get away with it. I know there are officials that cannot get away with some of the same things that I might say. Also if you actually read what I said, I was working his games so that must mean I was nobody too back then. I guess there are just some people that think you cannot make a joke or talk to people that you know will take the jest of what you are saying. I am also in sales for my day job. I deal with people all the time. I know I would not have made those same comments to the visiting coach because we did not "come up together" the same way as I did with this home coach.

I guess you are just going to have to get the stick removed from your behind and learn that the world does not revolve around you way of thinking. I will take what you say into account, but that does not mean I will change anything because what I do works for me. If that comment would have got you run out of the gym than you have to take another approach. I know what I do works very well for me.

Peace

[SMEngmann]

The one thing I take away from this, and granted I wasn't there to hear the exact words used (thus I won't question JRut's judgement), is that the vast majority of the board is willing to treat the assistant coaches like dirt. In fact, many seem to take pride in their less than zero tolerance approach to assistant coaches, and for me at least, this approach is counterproductive.

My opinion is that people who immediately treat assistant coaches with disdain, and giving them the "Mt. Rushmore" are doing themselves a disservice in managing the game. Granted, we can't have multiple voices speaking for a team or disputing calls vocally from the bench, but if an assistant has a respectful question here or there, even about a call I made, I am willing to respectfully answer that question. I won't do it often, but I don't believe in ignoring the assistant or being rude to him (not that I'm saying JRut was in the OP). If I treat the assistants with respect, then I may be able to get a favor from them in terms of helping the team out of a timeout, passing a message or whatever. Plus, it helps to foster a relationship, if I have a tough call and I've been respectful with assistants the assistant could vouch for me with the head coach and help head off a confrontation.

I had one scenario where this helped me earlier this year, and it was with a team I'd never seen before. The assistant had asked me something simple early in the game, I responded politely. Toward the end of the 1st half I had a backcourt call right in front of the bench (near the C, I was T) involving an airborne player leaving FC catching and landing in BC. Coach started to go nuts, assistant calmed him down, and then at halftime the HC came up to me and apologized for his reaction and said the assistant said I got the play right. Assistants can influence the HC, so anything you can do IMO to foster those relationships without any effect on the control of the game can help you during the games.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The one thing I take away from this, and granted I wasn't there to hear the exact words used (thus I won't question JRut's judgement), is that the vast majority of the board is willing to treat the assistant coaches like dirt. In fact, many seem to take pride in their less than zero tolerance approach to assistant coaches, and for me at least, this approach is counterproductive.

Well, I think that you're completely mis-reading what the vast majority of officials are saying.

You don't treat assistant coaches like anything. You deal with the head coach only. You can be polite or respond to something from an assistant coach very quickly, but explanations, etc. go to the head coach only. We didn't set up the system that all dealings with the officials should be through the head coach; the NFHS did. It's exactly the same under NCAA rules also. And yes, there also is zero tolerance towards an assistant coach acting in an unsporting manner, as well there should be. Or do you advocate allowing that too?

You're mistaking refusing to allow unsporting conduct from assistant coaches with treating them like dirt imo.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It sounds like the person that is defensive is you. I posted a story because I thought the situation was funny. Many "respected" officials noticed that and got that point who I know have some years under their belt. I told my partners the story I worked with and they found it funny. I talked to someone through PM and at a meeting tonight. No one said they had a problem with what I said or did or even made the same point you are trying to make. They just found it funny and took it as another war story.

I learned long time ago in my officiating career that what one official does may not work for another official. I know I cannot say things that certain veterans say and get away with it. I know there are officials that cannot get away with some of the same things that I might say. Also if you actually read what I said, I was working his games so that must mean I was nobody too back then. I guess there are just some people that think you cannot make a joke or talk to people that you know will take the jest of what you are saying. I am also in sales for my day job. I deal with people all the time. I know I would not have made those same comments to the visiting coach because we did not "come up together" the same way as I did with this home coach.

I guess you are just going to have to get the stick removed from your behind and learn that the world does not revolve around you way of thinking. I will take what you say into account, but that does not mean I will change anything because what I do works for me. If that comment would have got you run out of the gym than you have to take another approach. I know what I do works very well for me.

Peace

JRut, again, get over yourself. I didn't ask you to change a thing. I gave my opinion on a comment you made. You made the big stink about it. It's funny if someone agrees with you they are one of "many respected officials", but if they disagree then they need to quit being so "hot and bothered" or other such nonsense you conjure up.

"If that comment would have got you run out of the gym than you have to take another approach. I know what I do works very well for me."

Who said anything about getting run out of a gym? Where do you come up with some of your conclusions? Again, your comprehension skills are lacking.

I'm at the huddle for the 1st horn signal and an assistant makes a comment about "watching for hand-checking", depending on the day of the week, I'll either ignore it or say "the Head coach can ask me about it" and I move on. If the assistant asks an innocuous question I'll answer it. If the assistant makes a joke, even at my expense, I'll laugh at it. You're not the only one around here blessed with a the gift of gab and an engaging personality.

But I guess in JRut's world, if your opinion doesn't agree with the masses then that means you have a stick up your a$$. "The world doesn't revolve around my way of thinking", now that's funny, especially to anybody who knows me other than through the internet. You may find it hard to believe, but I deal with people all the time also. Spent 22 years in the military dealing with folks from all 50 states and a couple dozen countries and pretty much do the same thing now as a civilian. But I guess only folks from the Midwest can have a valid perspective on anything that happens in Illinois.

Come back down here to earth with the rest of us.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The one thing I take away from this, and granted I wasn't there to hear the exact words used (thus I won't question JRut's judgement), is that the vast majority of the board is willing to treat the assistant coaches like dirt. In fact, many seem to take pride in their less than zero tolerance approach to assistant coaches, and for me at least, this approach is counterproductive.

You would be very wrong. I work 2 other sports. It is the very same expectation to not tolerate questioning of officials by assistants in those coaches. When I worked my very first D1 Plate Game of my career in baseball last year, I had a play at the plate and the team at bat AC came out to complain and I did not eject them. After the game I was told that I should have ejected him, because he had no right as an AC to question the umpires. At the time I did not realize this was an assistant coach complaining (my mistake), but I was told by a veteran that at that level that was not at all accepted. Even if you watch a D1 Basketball game, you do not see AC getting up in the faces of the officials ever.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

My opinion is that people who immediately treat assistant coaches with disdain, and giving them the "Mt. Rushmore" are doing themselves a disservice in managing the game. Granted, we can't have multiple voices speaking for a team or disputing calls vocally from the bench, but if an assistant has a respectful question here or there, even about a call I made, I am willing to respectfully answer that question. I won't do it often, but I don't believe in ignoring the assistant or being rude to him (not that I'm saying JRut was in the OP). If I treat the assistants with respect, then I may be able to get a favor from them in terms of helping the team out of a timeout, passing a message or whatever. Plus, it helps to foster a relationship, if I have a tough call and I've been respectful with assistants the assistant could vouch for me with the head coach and help head off a confrontation.

Once again I disagree with you. If the HC had nothing to say or ask, I really do not need to be answering a lot of questions from an AC. Now having said that, if an assistant has a question that is related to helping the HC that is different. Usually you might have an AC ask about where the ball will be put in after a timeout and that is OK as long as it is not a debate to why it is put there (which happen this year in a game and my partner let him know very quickly to go back to his bench). I also did not disrespect this AC in my story. I let him know that the HC will be talking for his team. Just like some guys want to only hear from the captain, I only want to talk to the HC. Since the HC has all the pressure and responsibility of the program, I do not want to hear from someone other than that person. The rules also pretty much backs that up.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I had one scenario where this helped me earlier this year, and it was with a team I'd never seen before. The assistant had asked me something simple early in the game, I responded politely. Toward the end of the 1st half I had a backcourt call right in front of the bench (near the C, I was T) involving an airborne player leaving FC catching and landing in BC. Coach started to go nuts, assistant calmed him down, and then at halftime the HC came up to me and apologized for his reaction and said the assistant said I got the play right. Assistants can influence the HC, so anything you can do IMO to foster those relationships without any effect on the control of the game can help you during the games.

Here is another aspect you are missing in this argument from my point of view. You make it sound like every AC is just calm and cordial when they comment to the officials. Often times the AC is yelling and screaming, standing up and yelling about a minor call and saying things like, "You need to call that!!!" These confrontations are not as simple as what you have stated. What I did not say earlier in my post is this was about the 3rd time I was being questioned by an assistant and I was right next to the bench. It did not get out of hand and did not happen where that could be addressed, but I wanted that AC to know that the HC can talk to me. Later in that game when I T'd up one of his players for mouthing off, it was the HC that I wanted to give my explanation and the HC even joked with me about that player. It is not as simple as you want to make it. But I can tell you at all levels and sports I officiate, AC are there to assist the HC, not to tell the officials/umpires what to call or not call. The coaches that have been around for a long time know this very well, because they will tell their assistants to "shut up" (which happen to me this season) when they cross a line.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

JRut, again, get over yourself. I didn't ask you to change a thing. I gave my opinion on a comment you made. You made the big stink about it. It's funny if someone agrees with you they are one of "many respected officials", but if they disagree then they need to quick being so "hot and bothered" or other such nonsense you conjure up. Who said anything about getting run out of a gym? Where do you come up with some of your conclusions? Again, your comprehension skills are lacking.

I'm at the huddle for the 1st horn signal and an assistant makes a comment about "watching for hand-checking", depending on the day of the week, I'll either ignore it or say "the Head coach can ask me about it" and I move on. If the assistant asks an innocuous question I'll answer it. If the assistant makes a joke, even at my expense, I'll laugh at it. You're not the only one around here blessed with a the gift of gab and an engaging personality.

But I guess in JRut's world, if your opinion doesn't agree with the masses then that means you have a stick up your a$$. "The world doesn't revolve around my way of thinking", now that's funny, especially to anybody who knows me other than through the internet. You may find it hard to believe, but I deal with people all the time also. Spent 22 years in the military dealing with folks from all 50 states and a couple dozen countries and pretty much do the same thing now as a civilian. But I guess only folks from the Midwest can have a valid perspective on anything that happens in Illinois.

Come back down here to earth with the rest of us.

To me your post shows how insecure in your position you are. I told a story that I found to be funny. When you took on my position I told you along with others why I disagreed with your take, which not only I have the right to do, but you have the right to disagree with my position. Now you are going off on things that were not in the original post or about the topic. I am glad that you think you military dealings are the only thing important to everyone on this board. It is not to me, but thank you for giving your time and energy to a country that often lets people in your situation down. I did not include my life story in this post and in this thread. If you think I should not have said something to the AC the way I did, as I stated I will take that under advisement, but I have been doing this long enough that I can easily reject your advice because you were not there and you do not hire me for any games at any time. I guess some will say that it is arrogant to say something like that, but to me successful people do not listen to every Tom, Dick and Harry that gives an opinion. We are here after all to share opinions and to have discussions. That does not mean we all have to hold hands on every issue and agree with each other no matter how controversial the topic might be. There are some officials that off this board I respect tremendously, but I would not agree with everything they do. Maybe you are not removed enough from your service that you do not realize that in the real world people do not follow orders and only do what someone that feels superior tells them what to do. I guess if I agreed with you then everything would be alright with the world. I guess then I would not be in my own world (but let us also point out that others in this thread had no problem with the interaction as well). I guess sometimes people have to feel important by calling a bunch of names. I have not once said anything person towards you other than addressing what you choose to bring up. I will discontinue this conversation and you can go on calling me whatever you like to satisfy your needs.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

1)...I am glad that you think you military dealings are the only thing important to everyone on this board. It is not to me, but thank you for giving your time and energy to a country that often lets people in your situation down. I did not include my life story in this post and in this thread...2) Maybe you are not removed enough from your service that you do not realize that in the real world people do not follow orders and only do what someone that feels superior tells them what to do...3) I guess sometimes people have to feel important by calling a bunch of names... I have not once said anything person towards you other than addressing what you choose to bring up.

Peace

1) JRut msg21" I am also in sales for my day job. I deal with people all the time." Guess there goes you theory about not including your life story. My point was that working in sales is not the only calling in life in which folks deal with people all the time.

2) I missed the part where I took an order or gave an order. I think I stated an opinion:BNR msg2 "I think a little unnecessary verbiage on your part. Opens the door for possible inappropriate responses." Notice the words "I think", which equates to IMO. That was then entirety of my original response. My next response: BNR msg7 "I was referring to possible comments from the head coach. I couldn't care less about assistants. I would probably would have just ignored the assistant." Again, I'm stating what I would do. Not asking or ordering you to change a thing. Like I said previously, anybody who knows me in real life would laugh at your psycho-analysis of me. Especially my boss. Me? Blindly follow orders? Now that is hysterical.

3) JRut msg19 " If that is something you would get all hot and bothered" JRut msg21 "I guess you are just going to have to get the stick removed from your behind and learn that the world does not revolve around you way of thinking." Those 2 comments were personal towards me. As far as name-calling, I've searched high & low and can't find where I called you a name. I said you were "full of yourself" and "you lack comprehension skills" both opinions I based solely on what you wrote in this thread.

If my opinions are so unimportant then feel free to ignore them. But is the fact that other people in this thread "had no problem with the interaction as well" supposed to have some sort of significance? They are entitled to their opinions. Sorry if I'm not playing the role of the good soldier and marching in step with everyone else. I guess I am "removed enough from my service that I do realize that in the real world people do not follow orders".

How about following your own advice. I disagreed with you. Get over it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

How about following your own advice. I disagreed with you. Get over it.

You are the one ranting about it. I was telling a story, you are trying to make a value judgment on all the contents of the story. I am perfectly happy with what I said. Are you as secure in the position that others might be taking against you?

Anything you want to lecture to me about?

Peace

[j51969]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you say so.

I think I have a right to respond to a coach and I think I have a right to make the point. His comment did not bother me, so I do not see the issue. If that is something you would get all hot and bothered by, then that is your right. I guess we all have our own temperature level. I just do not sweat the small stuff. In my opinion that was very "small."

Peace

I don't think there was anything wrong with the way you handled it. You were there no us. I feel some officials are to quick to wack a guy, because they might be preceived a weak. That's what makes alot of these threads hard to comment on. Only being there can you get the true emotion of the situation. JMO

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are the one ranting about it. I was telling a story, you are trying to make a value judgment on all the contents of the story. I am perfectly happy with what I said. Are you as secure in the position that others might be taking against you?

Anything you want to lecture to me about?

Peace

Well, if this question is open to everyone...Buffalo isn't considered part of the east coast...